OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums General Discussion Forum Off Topics Australia's Current State !

I ONCE LOVED MY COUNTRY !

I remember back in 1968 living in Brisbane that the 3 major cities back then were Sydney. Melbourne & Adelaide. Adelaide was the Industrial Hub City.

Adelaide - South Australia was where you went to work in the Iron Ore Industry or where you could get a job making railway tracks for B.H.P. You could get a job building ships, submarines, cars, washing machines, fridges, TV�s, Hills hoists, Victa Lawn Mowers, or make tyres at the Bridgestone / Uniroyal factory.
Lightburn Washing Machine Company even made a car called a Zeta. It was not much of a car but at least it was Australian and we built it.

I worked at Port Stanvac where we made our own Petrol, Diesel, Kerosene and Oil. We had Oil Rigs in Bass Straight, North West Shelf and the Timor Sea.
We even had Australian owned Service Stations like Golden Fleece, Ampol, Neptune and many of us young wanna-be mechanics back then worked as a driveway attendant.

I remember catching a train from the city to Gawler and then on to Freeling, Hamley Bridge, Stockport, Riverton, up to Clare, Gladstone, Laura etc. And all these towns were bustling with activity and on the weekends they were all open for business.
Our shops were filled on every shelf with food and products all proudly made or grown in Australia. Our fridge was full of Lamb Chops and Steaks because it was cheap as we were a huge Lamb and Beef growing Nation. And once a month Mum would make us all a delicacy! It was called a Sunday Roast Chicken.
I remember when we all had trade skills and high quality Sidchrome / Dawn tools that would last and last with an "Unconditional Guarantee".
But most of all we had mates. We as Australians watched each other�s backs even if we had not met yet, and we'd all said G�Day to everyone with a smile.
Our kids could go anywhere they liked on their bikes just as long as they were home before dark. Australia was pretty safe back then.

Yes Australia was once a self-supporting nation that had it all. It had Farms that produce our dairy, fruit & vegie and meats etc.
And Politicians back then were known as statesmen and they were voted in by the people for the people on behalf of the people and did what the people wanted.

We had public utilities owned by us the people that guaranteed our Electricity, Water and Sewage forever.
No one knew how much the Snowy Mountain Scheme cost, we just built it.
No one knew how much the Sydney Harbour Bridge or the Indian-Pacific railway cost ! WE JUST BUILT IT!

Then came CORPORATE GREED !

Now everything above has GONE.
Now we don�t watch each other�s backs any more, but watch each other through security bars, burglar alarms and cameras, also security screens.
Now we Dob each other in and are encouraged to do so.
Now we import poor quality chemically processed food.
Now we import cheap tools that break just taking them out of the packet that they come in.
Now we rely on ships to bring in our fuels.
Now we can�t afford our own Lamb or Beef any more.
Now we eat steroid pumped chicken just about every day.
Now we import trade skilled workers on 457 Visa�s
Now we have high unemployment as nearly all of our Industry and Manufacturing has gone offshore.
Now we have that many Laws that we have just about outlawed ourselves. But I guess we need even more laws so now we will have Sharia Law as well.
We now pay for water that falls out of the sky at $3.80 a litre.
Now we have taxes for everything. Taxes for carbon, Taxes for sake of having taxes, (They call them Levy�s) and don�t forget the newest tax is the ISLAMIC TAX (Halal Certification)
Now here in South Australia in our towns we have Railway Stations and railway tracks but no trains.
We have Public Bus Stops in our Towns but no buses.
We have Hospitals and Clinics but no Doctors or Nurses.
We all have Mobile Phones and have little to no reception.
We have Digital TV�s with stuff all Signal.
And the worst of all is our once great nation is being sold off piece by piece to every other country on earth except us.

Yes I did once love my country !

I totally agree with you Bonnar bloke the place has gone to pot. where is the pride of things sporting the label "Made In Australia" People don't talk to each other in restaurants any more they just play with their phones. Where has good old fashioned service with a smile gone to. I could go on and on but you get the point.

Please don't get me started, just so glad I'm as old as I am and won't live to see this country totally destroyed

Thats very true BB, being 15 I never got to experience any of this, only once I got into the old lawn mowers, fuel cans and machinery that I realized how much better Australia was back then.

Sadly my generation isn't the one that will make it better, they will just make it worse. To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if the Greens win the election and we get a Green's PM because of them....
They have been born and raised to sway to the no country, no gender, no race Idea. Its sad really.

Ahh well, we can only hope

P.S. being a petrol can collector that Esso reference is really bugging me, Esso has always been US owned, by Exxonmobil. They bought out the Australian Atlantic Petroleum, Exonmobil closed Esso Australia when they realized the Mobil brand would make them more money here. I couldn't help myself lol.

Evening all,

Yup, I sure wish things were more like they were when I was growing up too. But I have to keep the faith. I have two daughters at uni age. I have to believe this world will be good one for them - and if it's not, well, isn't it our fault?

I do have concerns about the state of local manufacturing and agriculture but here's what concerns me most:

We are making our political and policy decisions based on the 24 hour news cycle. Decisions made in haste and carried out at blinding speed. Proper decisions made for the proper reasons with proper thought and discussions from both sides of politics in the interests of the country and not just the next Twitter feed. The ABC show "the hollow men" would have been funny if it wasn't so damned true!

I'm also deeply concerned about the global frenzy around nationalism and basically, in a word, that's what your alluding to BB. This global movement has more power to destabilise the globe than anything else that's going on at the moment. The situation leadership wise in the U.S. is......scary.
The point is, we need to be very careful. Let's not throw the metaphorical baby out with the bath water as they've done in the U.S. We need to remain calm and focused. Knee-jerk behaviour at the ballot box could do untold damage.

Phillip Adams interviewed a bloke on LNL who suggested that in the absence of fact or experience we form views which are defensive/ protective in nature and that the starting point in developing 'rounder' views is curiosity.

I reckon that's gold

Cheers,

Kye, you are a wise man, far beyond your years

G'day Kye,
There's some interesting history behind those names, US originated though they are.

'Esso' is just the phonetic spelling of the acronym 'SO'. The Standard Oil Company Trust was a huge US petroleum industry company, that was established and controlled by the Rockefeller family. The US Government forced it to be broken up in 1911, into 34 'independent' companies, many of which retained the 'Standard Oil' words in their new names.

The Standard Oil Co. of New York became 'SOCONY Mobil', and later just 'Mobil'; the Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey became Esso, and later Exxon. Then in more recent times [1999], these two re-amalgamated to become ExxonMobil!

Why the invented name 'Exxon'? Because 'Esso' has a rude or derogatory meaning, in some of the world's languages.

The beginning of the end for Australian ownership of our 'downstream' [i.e. refining and distribution] petroleum industry was in 1952, when the then Federal Government sold its half of the joint-venture 'Commonwealth Oil Refineries' company to the other half-owner, the Anglo-Persian Oil Co., which later became British Petroleum, then just BP.

BTW 'upstream', in its petroleum industry meaning, refers to the production and transport, and some processing, of crude oil and gas. It's usual for oil wellhead fluids to include oil, dissolved gases, and water - often salty water.

These fluids are separated adjacent to the wellhead before the sales gas and oil are conveyed, by pipeline/s and/or tanker/s, to the next processing stage.

The water is generally disposed of at the wellhead; either by re-injection into the oil-bearing formation, or in the case of offshore platforms, purification to a standard which makes it permissible to pump it overboard into the sea.

The Bass Strait standard for discharge to sea is <30mg/L of oil-in-water - 30ppm.

Does any one know when Esso petrol stations ceased in Australia ( Sydney)?
I recall an Esso in the suburb of Eastwood where I grew up, becoming a Mobil in the early 1980s some time.
Now Mobil servos are no more, in Sydney and surrounds at least, taken over by that slave driver 711 with its sub continent work force.
It's sad seeing so many names disappear over the years and there being seemingly less companies in each sector.
They say our market can't support so many companies competing with each other, as their justification for duopolies such as Coleworths
but there didn't seem to be any trouble before, when Australia's population used to be much less.
I think piss poor ethics in Australia's corporate environment is the culprit with monopolistic attitudes to blame.
Bunnings hardware chain is another prime example of one of these monopolistic companies getting too big for its boots and stifling diversity in their field.
They already had a big store in Mascot in Sydney's South, yet decided to open an even more gargantuan facility in neighbouring Alexandria at about the time Masters were operating for the first time. It was pretty obvious why they did it and I have heard through the grape vine that is the only reason it was established.

1990. Esso sold their servo chain to Mobil, then the two companies merged in 1999. So it ended up as little more than a rebranding exercise.

Maybe the process started earlier with some petroleum stations. I swear the Eastwood Esso
became a Mobil much earlier, 1984 perhaps.

Well, there were always sales of individual company-owned servos, for example when they weren't meeting Esso's KPI's for turnover or profitability.

Here in Adelaide all the Mobil sites have become OTR's (On the Run)which is a consortium that now controls all the BP sites along with Mogas and several independents. Woolworths are getting out of the fuel business and those sites are transferring over to BP which will progress across to Shahin's group of OTR (Peregrine Group) So all we have here now is Coles Express, a few Caltex sites and the occasional independent sites with United and Liberty slowly getting pinged off and becoming OTR's. The Peregrine Group will surely own well over 65 percent of the fuel selling market along with Brumby's Bakery, Smokemart, Wok in a Box, Happy Wash and Krispy Kremes outside of Victoria.

One thing that does puzzle me though and that is why is Mobil still putting so much cash in to the now defunct Holden Racing Team (now HSV Walkinshaw Racing) being their major sponsor and only selling a bit of Mobil 1 oil ?

Cheers,
BB.

Yep, it's a bit curious, BB.
The local Mobil distributor here, Guzzardi Petroleum, sold out to United Petroleum [hack, spit], so there aren't any Mobil servos or depots closer to here than the outskirts of Melbourne.

Your 100% right there Gadge.

Caltex is Australian owned, but its an American brand. They merged with Ampol so who knows, they even use Ampol for there Singapore branch.

Matilda sold out to Puma not too long ago, it was a pretty new brand but it was still Aussie, they even had the massive Kangaroo during the 82 Commonwealth Games in Brisbane.

One of the things that attracted me to Southern Cross mowers is that I loved the idea of them being made in the big country town of Toowoomba in Queensland, Australia. The Foundry once employed a great many local people and made a great many products. When you think of the amount of local manufacturing that has disappeared today, it is shocking to say the least. Toowoomba also had a large milk factory that processed milk from the region's many farms. Then deregulation came along (for "necessary" reasons, we were told by those in power) and so the factory closed its doors and so did many of the local dairy farms. I am certain that I will live to see the day when all of our milk is processed in China and shipped back to us, unless things change for the better in a hurry (but I am not sure when or if that will ever happen).

I got to thinking one day, if someone was to rebuild these mowers here in Australia, or even carry on the legacy of trying to produce an all-Australian made engine or mower, they would really have their work cut out. Where are the foundries? Where are the moulds? Who would be even willing to contemplate such a venture today, with the market place flooded with cheap overseas imports? Where are the skilled labourers, designers, engineers and craftsman gone? Even the bolts, nuts and screws would in all likelihood come from China.

We also now live in a world so dominated by rules and regulations and safety that we are seeing a whole generation of our children being wrapped in cotton wool. Trees have to be felled in parks in case a branch should fall on "Little Johnny's" head while he is playing. Sand is now regarded as being unhygienic and is being replaced with rubber mats, as is lawn and concrete. I expect any day soon they will be wrapping up playground equipment and posts in bubble wrap in case some kid is texting and not looking where is he walking.

As a good mate told me recently, Australia cannot even manufacture toothpaste or mouthwash any more, and many of our foods now come processed and packaged from overseas, and there are only a couple of soap manufacturers. We cannot even knit socks any more and you don't mend anything, you just throw it in the bin and buy a new one. The art and science of making many simple household products is being lost. Almost 95% of all non-food products on our shelves are "Made in China". I commented that if ever there is another global war, or even a war involving only the Asian countries, Australia will soon run out of basic essentials. There are craft industries making small amounts of old-fashioned products, but they would not be able to keep up the demand. Will we learn how to make things for ourselves again, or will we simply starve? My mate then laughed and said "Well mate, if ever there is a war the enemy will be able to smell us coming! And we can fend them off with our terrible bad breath!" Ain't that the simple truth!

The milk is a big problem Vint_mow, my mate lives on a dairy farm, his mum sells the milk to Dairy Farmers and said that in the past decade or so the South East Queensland region has dropped from around 2500 farms down to around 100.

As for the poles being wrapped in bubble wrap, its already happening!!! The poles at my school are being wrapped in the protective gear they use for the goal posts on a football field. But with the rules and laws I wouldn't be surprised if the school got sued for a kid walking into a pole....

I hope there is never a war with China, because like you said we would have nothing here! I wish someone would try to bring it back here, Trumps trying to bring it back in America, so why can't we ?

I was angry at the start of this, now I'm getting depressed. Kye, the world has moved on and you can never go back

Well Norm there's no chance of you doing something untoward with a gun is there, as we can't make those either anymore.

BTW the new Joint Project Strike Fighter (F35) couldn't complete its display today down at Avalon, Victoria as it was apparently too windy, so they landed at Point Cook and will fly home when the weather is better.

Shame if a war started in Winter, hey can we delay fighting til the weather improves ?

Unbelievable !

At one stage we even assembled a small batch of the famous Bell 206 Jetranger helicopters.
I believe it was CAC ( Commonwealth Aircraft Corp.) of Melbourne. It was a special variant I believe.
You will be heartened to know that we still build the body work of nearly all the buses and coaches you see and catch on our roads, though imports from China and Malaysia have made inroads.
Gemilang of Malaysia have recently won the tender to supply new double deckers for Sydney's Northern Beaches when Volgren of Melbourne have been exporting deckers to Hong Kong and Singapore for many years.
The other major local bus builders include Custom Coaches of Sydney and Bustech in Queensland who have been supplying the last 300 or so latest buses for Sydney using Volvo and Scania chassis.
Iveco Australia (formerly International Acco) are still manufacturing trucks at their Melbourne facility and are a major supplier of heavy duty trucks for the domestic market. Chances are that garbage truck roaring in your street at 5am is one of these.
RFW trucks based at Chester Hill in Sydney are a specialised truck builder who also carry out repairs to other trucks and actually make their own axles and other truck components that are said to be superior in durability to their American and European counterpart
There was a story years ago where Brisbane City Council were after a specialised sewerage sucking truck and looked all over the world ( except here!!) , only for a Swedish firm to tell them that RFW in Sydney were the only ones who could build them their truck. Only then did BCC knock on their door and got their sewerage truck!

BB, my brother who lives in Sydney called in today, hadn't seen him for a few years. He came down to the Air Show for a look yesterday and he didn't even mention the F35 so it couldn't have been too impressive, and he loves his planes was an air traffic controller for about 35 years

Dunno about that - but it's only the very short shelf life of raw milk that will prevent it!
It wouldn't be possible to produce such items here by the traditional methods now, due to the loss of essential skills, as you say. It would only be possible to do it by state-of-the-art automated/robotic methods - CNC machining, 3D printing, robotic welding and assembly...
While I agree that the pendulum has swung too far one way, there's another side to the 'Elfin Safety' coin too, you know. A very dark one - the current resurgence of 'black lung' [aka coal miners' pneumoconiosis] in Queensland is a good example. The old occupational diseases are still lying in wait; all too ready to bite us in the arse, with big dark teeth.
Well, the major brands of toothpaste may have gone offshore, but I just checked the bathroom cupboard, and the Aldi house brands are still made here! So is their bath soap.

Sadly accurate, that.
But in the global view, large scale mass production of non-food goods is going down the high-automation route, and that will catch up with even the likes of the Chinese and Koreans etc before very long.

I do see some growth opportunities for artisanal and specialist niche products, but our politicans' strategy of becoming a 'service economy' is just crazy.

I'm irresistibly reminded of the tale of a legendary island off the coast of Britain, whose inhabitants eked out a precarious living by taking in each others' washing!

And putting our bets on tourism? Even crazier! It's been shown time and time again, that this is the least stable of industries, and extremely subject to events like economic crashes and even minor natural disasters...

Hi Norm,

I've got some photos of them which my lad who lives in Melbourne took. He says they are far quieter than the F/A-18's on approach, but like every new aircraft that comes onto the scene it takes me quite some time to gell to them just like it took me to warm to the 18's over the Mirages. Still love the delta winged Mirages though, sadly we'll never ever see one fly again even in historical form. Just way too expensive to fly those jets with all their outdated avionics that's required.

Cheers,
BB.

BB I remember as a young kid living on a farm down in Gippsland and a Sabre jet screamed across the sky so low I think I could see the pilot. I still remember where I was standing at the time down by the old windmill. Something I will never forget

Hi Norm,

Well the Sabre CAC-86 still has very limited avionics thus there are a couple of flying examples of them that appear at various air shows, much the same for the Canberra bomber, but once we got to the Dessault Mirage the whole trailer package had to be run out to the aircraft to fire it up and those electronics are just so outdated it would cost millions to keep one only as a flying example. I Was privileged to see the very last one A3-2 (dual seater) do a flat out run over the Edinburgh base right above the ARDU Hangar and then do a totally vertical climb up to 20,000 feet and disappear for good. We've never seen one fly again after it landed in Woomera to be mothballed until the sale of all of the remaining units to Pakistan. Well at least that was a better outcome than what happened to most decommissioned aircraft in this country, either flown remotely and blown out the sky at Woomera or melted down as scrap as what was the case with most Ex RAAF aircraft.

One of those Sabres has now been grounded for the moment, the one operated by the Temora Aviation Museum, that's on long term loan from the RAAF.

That's because Martin Baker in the UK have discontinued all support, including consumables, for their 'historical' ejector seats.

RAAF policy is, that jet aircraft in their fleet which have ejector seats as original equipment, must retain those seats in operational condition to remain flyable. Temora have been looking at options for fitting a more modern bang seat to the Sabre since 2015, but haven't announced any progress with this issue.

The other airworthy CAC Sabre I'm aware of, is based locally to me, and doesn't run a live bang seat. Jeff Trappett owns, and restored, that one. He's a bit of a historic warbird buff, and also has a CAC Mustang and a DC-3 in airworthy status; he's an ex RAAF and airline pilot.

Temora run live bang seats in several of their other historic jet warbirds [De Havilland Vampire, Gloster Meteor, Canberra], but they have a good enough supply of the Martin Baker consumables for those ones to get them through for quite some time. They don't run live bang seats in their pair of Cessna A-37B Dragonflys.

The closest jet low pass I've been under was a Flying Pig [F-111] at the Warbirds Over Wanaka airshow in NZ in 2006. Bloody impressive!

Hi Gadge, I'm sorry to harp on about this Sabre but it is so vivid in my memory. This jet came screaming up the valley at very low altitude, I didn't even hear it coming till it was above me, then I think he saw me and flicked it up sideways so I was looking into the cockpit and then he was gone, so were all the cows in every direction. I always figured he was probably an ex Korea pilot possibly on his last flight and back in those days they couldn't track them like today, so I guess he told the boss he had just taken it out for final spin around the block. I guess it came out of the Sale airforce base

Mate, we all have some formative experiences in our lives, that we'll never forget.

I know I've sure had a few - and they do make great yarns to relate to a good audience, too!

BTW, dunno if the CAC Sabres served in Korea, offhand. I do know that the RAAF's DH Vampires [quad 20mm Hispano cannon armament] did serve there. So did their Gloster Meteors; identical gun armament.

Temora Museum's Meteor wears the RAAF squadron number and 'Halestorm' livery of the late George Hale, who flew an RAAF Gloster Meteor F8 in Korea.

In light of this discussion I thought I would share my own recent experiences with a trucking freight company that I will not name here.

I was to take ownership of a vintage mower that I wanted for spare parts from NSW. Believe it or not, the trucking company refused to carry it. The poor bloke who was sending it had phoned the company for a quote and they told him they could send it strapped to a shipping pallet. So he drives the 30 minutes to the depot only to get some smart young bugger telling him they can't carry it because it is "a liability". Believe it or not he got told that the mower could "explode"! Yes, explode! Has anyone ever heard anything so stupid?

They told him that the mower could still have oil or petrol in it and that makes it a "hazard" because it could self-combust at any moment. I don't know about anyone else, but I've never heard of any old mower suddenly self-combusting when it is not even running! There are a few yards around town here that have piles of old mowers and car bodies and I tend to think the greatest risk would be from a grass fire, due to the amount of rubbish that tends to grow around these wrecks. Perhaps the engine blocks could explode if subject to sufficient heat and sealed up, but really the entire freight truck would be a complete write off by that time anyway and I very much doubt that the mower would be the cause of any such fire.

Anyway, the bloke told them that this mower hadn't run in over 10 years due to a seized valve and the fuel and oil had been drained around the same time and all the fuel had evaporated, and what if he removes the fuel cap, spark plug and sump plug? They just shook their head.

So he asks them if they would take a brand new mower or one that has been reconditioned. "No problem" they replied. Then he argued with them that reconditioned mowers have all had oil and fuel through them. Still they wouldn't budge. There is also the irony that their own trucks have engines and need fuel and oil to run. Perhaps so many of them are catching fire and exploding that they are afraid of the mere sight of an engine?

My guess is they didn't like the look of the rust and bits of caked oil and dirt that you always get on old relic mowers. They were probably scared they might get it on their hands and clean uniforms. Also the mower has a couple of cracked wheels and they were probably worried I might come back on them for "damages". But if that was the case, why didn't they say that instead of beating around the bush with tales of old engines spontaneously exploding?

Anyway, the next day he takes the whole thing back in a sealed up box and tells them it is just a box full of old Mack truck parts. No problem. They didn't even want to look inside!

He also got a quote from another company and they said "no worries" to carrying it strapped to a wooden pallet, but they were twice the price.

I wonder, what is the world coming to when a "nationwide" express trucking company will not even carry a lawnmower? And as for an old pile of rusty metal exploding, well that is just plain stupid.

I worry for the world our kids and grandkids will have to live in. Will everybody in the future be too afraid to do anything? "Oh I'd better not mow the lawn today, I might hit a wasp nest and die from anaphylactic shock! Or the mower might explode suddenly and kill me. Better leave that one to a professional wearing full body armour!" It really has got that stupid.

Hi VM,

Well any used internal combustion engine that has been run and is not fully stripped and cleaned is classed as DG in the transport game (Dangerous Goods). There are huge penalties for carrying such items in a normal freight consignment. Try shipping a litre of paint interstate as it sends shivers down any truck drivers spine if it's not on the manifest and listed as DG and him then not displaying DG signage on both the front and rear of the truck. Also he must also have a DG license.

there are plenty of cowboys on the long haul runs that will take the chance, but if they get checked by the "Scalies" and they discover it then he's out of a job due to loss of his license and that means no food on the table.

Yes it's all gone very OH&S hasn't it.

Cheers,
BB.

Gadge, economies of scale are all out of whack these days. For a long time throughout the 90s and 00s, fish being caught in New Zealand were sent to China to be put in packets and then sent back to New Zealand for re-distribution to places like Australia. In more recent years the trend is to distribute the fish packaged directly from China, thus cutting out the need for double shipping. I once joked at the kitchen table that some of these fish were more widely traveled than myself and it's a wonder they don't all have their own passports. I suspect that as transport costs continue to increase we will eventually start to see Australian and New Zealand caught and packaged fish products on our shelves once again, thus cutting out the Chinese "middle men".

Re the short shelf life of milk, the same situation applies. You may not realize that post-deregulation of the dairy industry, a huge amount of milk from Queensland was sent to far SE Qld, NSW and even to Victoria for processing due to the huge loss of local milk processors such as the Unity factory in Toowoomba. In fact I know many farmers faced the dilemma of having milk in their vats but could not find any companies willing to pick up their milk. Turn the clock on to 2014 and the reverse is true. Milk collected from dairy farms in Victoria is making a journey of nearly 2,000 kilometres for processing to Queensland and northern New South Wales to meet demand. Companies can still make money from the milk, because not enough is being produced up north.

Queensland has lost 100 million litres of milk in the five years prior to 2014. In the same period NSW probably lost another 30 million litres over that period.

The big trend now is for the Chinese to buy up the largest dairy farms to supply their own markets with powdered milk product. I am sure this will soon create a shortfall of processed milk in Australia which will have to be found somewhere, and if more Australian farmers continue to leave the industry I am not sure where this milk can come from. I guess New Zealand is closer to us than China, so that would be one likely source, but that depends on whether the Chinese can produce "long life" milk products at far cheaper cost. But ultimately the Chinese may price themselves out of the market due to rapidly increasing transport costs. I would hate to be a dairy farmer in modern Australia. The red tape is horrendous and it costs far more to feed cattle than what you ever get back from the milk produced. Add droughts to the equation and it is pretty hopeless. I guess this is something this new wave of Chinese dairy farmers may eventually discover!