OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions On Ride On Mowers Questions on Rover Ride On Mower The Rover Rancher saga continues....

Well, it was all going well, plowing through meter high grass etc.. then it stopped.. would start and run for a couple of seconds and stop again.

So, the naughty rancher spent the Easter weekend at the bottom of the paddock. I thought that would be enough punishment for it to realise that life is easier for everyone if it just works but sadly that plan did not come together...

So, I got the local guy out to have a look at it (after towing it back to the house)... Diagnosis, most likely the valves. splutter back out the carby when running and apparently it's not the right air filter so there would be plenty of dust getting in.

I also suspect the rings/cylinder may have suffered from the air filtering (or lack thereof). He said there was 30 psi when cranking it over and it should be way higher than that....

So, I think this one is beyond me and it's back to the shop.. If the engine is cactus then might look at a new motor to bolt on. I think for what I am doing (rough paddocks) the old rancher is pretty a pretty good machine.

Clearly I have not been praying and making appropriate sacrifices to the outdoor power equipment gods.

Nathan

Nathan_O,

I would be looking at the valves because if they are not seating properly your compression will be low and as you have said spluttering back through the carby, then it is pointing to the valves.

Check the valves before righting the motor off because they are not that expensive to replace and it is cheaper than spending over $1000 for a new motor.

Have a look and let us know if it is valves.

Thanks Bruce,

Will see what the verdict is. how long should it take to strip it down to get to the valves? that will give me some idea of cost I guess..

then to get the air filter sorted out..

It isn't usual for an engine to stop running due to loss of compression, unless it happened suddenly due to a catastrophic failure. I did achieve that kind of catastrophic failure once, with a motorcycle. Like nearly all old motorcycles it had no air filter at all, and I'd spent my last few cents on fuel. Because it had a black fuel tank and it was very hot I took my white shirt off and draped it over the tank, to reduce evaporation. After about 15 miles it stopped. A quick investigation revealed it had sucked my shirt in through the carburetor, through the intake valve into the cylinder, and burned nearly a foot of it away. Some of it caked under a valve and deprived it of all compression.
If your engine lost compression suddenly, taking in foreign material through an ill-fitting air cleaner could well be the cause. It should be obvious, though, when you look at the fit of various parts of the air cleaner, and you should be able to demonstrate the lack of compression by doing the Briggs & Stratton compression test: flip the cutting disk backwards against compression (with the spark plug disconnected, of course).
First find out whether you have compression, and second find out how you lost it. If it happened suddenly while mowing yard-high grass without a working air cleaner, you can have a fairly strong suspicion you have imitated my motorcycle-and-shirt trick. If so, it is no big deal and you should be able to fix it yourself.
You will need to remove the cooling air cowl, and the cylinder head. Then you need to remove the valve chest cover, and remove the valve retaining cotters and valve springs. Having done that, you inspect the seating area on both valves and seats to see if they are in contact, or are pitted, burned, or built up with crud (the latter is likely in this case, if you had an air cleaner failure). Apply some valve grinding paste to the sealing area on a valve, attach a suction cup device to the valve head, press it against its seat, and twirl. After you get tired of twirling you draw out the valve and look at its seat. It will have been lapped away a tiny amount of both valve and seat, and there should be a contact surface. You continue the process until you have a decent contact area all the way around both valve and seat. Then you put some ointment on the blisters on the palms of your hands and start on the second valve.
If you have sucked crud into the engine in sudden, catastrophic quantities, it will be easy to fix compared with a burned valve. Also, if it happened quickly it may not have damaged the rings and bore very much. Once you get the valves sealing, take a look at the bore and see if it has scratches running parallel to the piston movement. If they are severe, it will have to be honed or rebored. If not, you can clean the combustion chamber and piston-top, reassemble the valves, put the head back on, and see if it has decent compression. If it has, fix that air cleaner problem before you take it back out into the paddock, and promise yourself to be more attentive in future.

been busy with work so the mower again has taken a back seat, but the latest is that the rings are worn, blows plenty of smoke and the carby was past being repaired apparently.

So in the shop they got a spare carby on it and got it running to discover the smoke... for now just going to get it going and will keep the oil topped up and look out for a new (well 2nd hand) motor to put on it.

there's a 12.5 HP B&S on ebay that is local but it's now gone up to $445 and not sure if it's still worth it. A new one is around $800 apparently and at least then I know there will be no problems with it!
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330429164121&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

the rest of the mower is pretty good and for the terrain I am using it on it's probably the best one for it, solid axle, plenty of steel etc... a lot of these new mowers all have diffs and all the body work seems to be plastic...

Nathan

Nathan, I'm not clear on why you don't put new rings in the engine you have. On the information you have given I also don't understand why you needed to replace the carburetor, but that is water under the bridge at this point.

Even if your cylinder shows wear, it would be a lot cheaper to have it honed out for an oversized piston rather than scrap the engine.

I'll see how much it will be to get the rings done. This is way past my ability so I have to pay someone to do it.

not 100% on the carby. I will get the old one and send it to you if you like. I will have no use for it. If you have a use for it then it might as well go to a good home :-)

just called the shop apparently about 45 min to take engine out and same to put back in, then 30min to strip and see what's happening.. sound about right? can't recall what their rate is but say 60 that's 120 without parts and without fixing anything. depending on what is wrong the next cost will be variable..

If I put a different engine then I can try and sell the old one on ebay to someone that can fix it.

P.S. trying to find a good mower shop is not easy as well. our neighbour is part owner of the hardware/power shop where I have it so I believe I am getting the truth.. but I am no guru, if I was it wouldn't be at the shop

I had it in mind that you would replace the rings yourself. IIRC it was part of your plan at the beginning of this project, to learn how to do normal repair operations. You could not hone the cylinder yourself, but that is a ten minute job for the average mechanic, if it needs to be done.
So far as the old carburetor is concerned, I think you need to keep it both for spare parts, and for practising on.
I'm not sure it's necessary to remove the engine just to replace rings. It is a matter of removing the air cowl, removing the carburetor and muffler, then unbolting the cylinder head and inspecting the cylinder bore. Then if you are going to proceed to replace the rings, you'd unbolt the base of the cylinder, and slide it off the piston. You should be able to tell from looking closely at the under-hood area on your mower whether you have room to do this without taking the engine out. If the bore and piston look OK you need to remove the three piston rings from their grooves and replace them with new ones, and put everything back together. You would need to scrape the surfaces of the head and top of cylinder, and you would need a piston ring compressor to put the cylinder back on over the piston. You would need a new head gasket. If you don't need to take the engine out, the whole procedure would take Joe Carroll less than 90 minutes I think - maybe a lot less. I'm out of practice, I'd take longer. It isn't like playing a harp in an orchestra, it's pretty basic stuff.

Yes, I do want to learn but I also need to have a working mower. I have been lucky enough to get hold of my uncles mower (we call it goliath) john deer 6 foot out front thing... I'm only allowed to use it before it gets new blades

So I have got the paddocks under control for now so I will get the mower back and start operating on it. Will get a mate from down the road to help if I need more hands..

Just got to make sure I get it back running again before the paddocks go jungle like again.

I have tried to remove the muffler once before and I couldn't get it off, will have to get some bigger spanners on to it :-)

Will take plenty of photos of course to get some detailed diagnosis from the outdoorking experts :-)

what's a piston ring compressor? (googled) I know what the gasket is ..

If the muffler is difficult to get off, chances are the nuts have rusted onto the studs, or less likely the studs have rusted into the cast iron cylinder casting. Applying a big spanner will probably break off the studs rather than remove them. Extracting broken-off studs can be difficult for amateurs. I suggest you use some science: wet the exhaust studs and nuts with Penetrene repeatedly for a couple of days, then when you are ready to remove them, heat the nuts with a propane torch before you try to unscrew them.

I'll look in super cheap for some penetrene or similar I guess. don't have a propane torch, heat gun is the best I have, but I feel some more tool shopping coming on

need to get a half decent socket set. not sure where one I have came from. Probably crazy clarks! any recommendations on a reasonably priced brand that is OK quality?

It isn't really about brand unless you want to pay a bundle of money, it is about what steel alloy has been used, and how accurately the tools have been forged and finished. My system (which is not the only option) is to look only at items that are clearly marked as made from chrome-vanadium steel, and are fairly well finished in the area where it matters: the parts the nut touches. You should take a pocketful of (clean, derusted) nuts and bolts with you, and see if they fit: not loosely, but they will go in under light finger pressure.
If you are going to work on a ride-on today and perhaps a tractor tomorrow, forget about 3/8" drive sets: get half-inch drive. On any tractor bigger than a grey Fergie, you'll need three-quarter inch drive part of the time, but that equipment is far too heavy and clumsy to use for general work.
Having said all that, I still find I'd much rather use a brand-name Australian (Sidchrome), American, Japanese or German tool than anything else. However they would cost twice as much as top-quality Chinese ones, and not function any better. Just watch out for low quality tools, where-ever they are made. If you know a mechanic, discuss it with him or her. Nearly all qualified mechanics know good tools from bad ones.

And the super-short answer is Kincrome is OK in most non-critical applications, but there are plenty of unknown brands at least as good.

signed up on the supercheap site for the newsletter so I have a 20% off voucher.

was looking at something like this http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/on...-Piece-3-8-Drive.aspx?pid=166331#details

would make life more pleasurable while working on the mower, that's for sure!

That set is only 3/8" drive: it is light-duty. There is no reference either to manufacturing process (they need to be forged) or alloy (they need to be chrome-vanadium), so all I am left with is my experience with Stanley tools, and that experience has been that they are not of professional quality - in some cases (screwdrivers) by a very wide margin, in other kinds of tools by a smaller margin. As I understand it Stanley bought Sidchrome as a premium-priced brand, but have downgraded the Sidchrome products now that production is in South-East Asia. The Stanley brand is positioned far below the Sidchrome brand of course.

Another reason I would not choose that socket set is that it has a full set of extended ("deep") sockets, which you seldom need, so you are buying nearly twice as many as you require, and paying for all of them. Further down on that same web page there is a set of half inch drive Stanley sockets for that same price (but without the "deep" set accompanying it.) So far as working on your ride-on is concerned, that 3/8" socket set would probably be adequate. If you ever move on to even a small tractor or car, Stanley 3/8" drive sockets just aren't where it's at. You could do most of the work on a car or small tractor with the Stanley half inch drive set, though.
I am not suggesting that you pay premium prices for professional tools - you won't use them enough to justify the expense.

i have bought a very large amount of tools in the past few years.
although i already had large socket sets i bought a smaler sidchrome socket set that goes up to 13mm or 1/2 inch. i payed $70 for it and its been worth every bit. before it i had many cheep sets and they are nothing like it. i was for ever either stripping the bolt due to an ill fitting socket or actually shearing the socket in 1/2. the main type to steer away from at all costs is the type that uses an adapter to go from 3/8 to 1/4, as they are the first thing to break and then your in hot soup.
i agree with grumpy that the deep sockets are not required for mower use (useful for head studs in cars). i use a Stanly set(almost identical to that one accept it red)at one of my casual work places all the time and have found it to be just as good as sidchrome as long as you are not trying to undo bolts holding bridges together.
another option is the $200 tool chests that have all necessary tools for the normal handy man. although i personally hate them because they are impractical when im on a call out or similar but they are neat in shop use and include more tools(although not the best quality). if you are keen on building up a decent tool collection then buy a big and a small socket set, then in time buy some decent spanners etc to spreed the costs and make it more affordable to acquire quality tools.
so anyway sorry for the long post but hopefully it helps
regards jay