OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Engines Questions On Victa Two Stroke Engines Full Crank Engine, Super 600

Hi Bushie, you mentioned earlier that the motor felt tight to turn over. I notice the decompressor is blanked off with a spark plug and you have no plug in the plug hole, so it should turn freely with minimal resistance. If you've checked the end gap of the rings and they were within limits i would suggest that you remove the ring expander from under the bottom ring and see if this helps. By your photo it seems as the bottom ring is the one that is marked yet the top ring appears unscathed, hence leading me to believe the expander is causing your problem.. Both rings are still usable as you have not yet turned it over a few hundred times with the drill.

After you've removed the expander and re-assembled, the engine should turn freely by HAND and not require the use of a socket and ratchet.

Thanks Grumpy and Bigted.
Well I could just, barely, turn it over by hand, that is without the flywheel, so used a socket. Later when the flywheel was on I could turn it over with that, but it did seem tight.
I did oil the rings, bore and piston. Good to know I can use a drill to check spark etc. when every thing is going freely.

Yes Bigted I did check the ring gaps and they were within limits (just) .08 from memory. I put one ring at a time in the bottom of the bore and made sure it was square, using the piston with a ring in the bottom ring groove to push in.
Will take out the ring expander in the morning, recon you've 'hit the nail on the head'. Will double check all tolerances.

Terrific advice gents, am very grateful I can go on with the project tomorrow with renewed confidence and gained knowledge.

The expander may be the problem, but only if the ring set was very badly designed, made, or installed (some expanders, particularly those made for cars, can be "crossed over" at the ends when you put them in the ring groove, and this causes the ring not to sit right down in the groove). I've made my opinion of the design of Victa 2 strokes known several times, and won't go into it further. If the excessive friction problem is solved by removing the expander, then you should remove it because using it may ruin your engine, but you should bear in mind that the bottom piston ring may not function properly without it.

You were spot on with your assessment of the problem Bigted. Took the expander out, reassembled and it is turning over freely by hand. Can't thank you enough. Checked all tolerances and re-oiled.
BTW the min ring gap was .008 (not .08 as mentioned above) to .017 max, they were wider than .008 but still below max.

Couldn't find a torque spec on the flywheel nut, undid it with an impact gun...

Have also got a nice healthy spark by turning the engine over with a drill (after turning the coil around the right way ).

Will be able to go on with the rest of the rebuild now.



Cheers.

Frame assembly is near completion but concerned about a few parts, mainly the high compression powerplus muffler. tried the online forum but has the conventional one. Will put an add in Wanted.

A bit more progress.







Will have to improve my painting skills if ever I refurbish another mower, apart from a marginal, at best, colour match, I bought an inferior paint. As Mark (electric) pointed out in one of his early rebuilds; "it's only a few more dollars for good paint". Particularly seeing it took two cans, where I'm sure I'd have some left in a single can of good stuff. Some of the old rattle can paints I've had here for many years, (Galmet, Killrust) performed much better.
On top of that, late one evening when carrying the base outside I chipped it, then rushing to paint over the chips, with the cheap paint not covering well, made runs on an otherwise reasonable finish.

Only managed to save one sticker/decal, the 'Super 600' one was peeling and bubbled and the 'belt adjustment' one came off with the masking tape.

Started working on the G4 carby today. Think I've read and saved everything on the forum about them, and as opposed to the LM, but still confused regarding the jet and emulsion tube. Pretty sure the one off the Super was a X breed, but the other two I stripped down I'm quite sure are complete-genuine though none had emulsion tubes.
Things noted: The body of the G4 is longer, it has longer 'legs' on the cam, it has the idle knob and a black poppet valve. Some advice here would be appreciated.
Of the three jets one has a bigger bore, by eye, also the outer spring looked a bigger gauge on that one. Will use this one on the Super.
How important is the gauze filter on the jet?

Would like to know the vintage of the mower, engine number is 304 0388.

Still waiting on a few things, foam spacer for under the filter, foam for the fuel cap. The windrower flap has a split that will have to wait till I visit a friend and his tig, but the thing I am most anxious about is the right muffler, would gladly pay the going rate + postage if anyone has a spare(??)

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Bushie, looks good so far mate. The LM and G4 carby parts are not interchangeable so dont mix them up.
The carb you use is up to you but the gauze on the jet is critical as it acts as a filter to stop debris from blocking the jet. The idle knob was made obsolete by Victa as the average consumer was dialling the idle way too low and was causing issues like fouled plugs and blocked mufflers as the oil was not burning out of the fuel mixture.
As for the muffler i'll have a look if i've got one and let you know.

This might also help but bear in mind the specs are for an LM carby mounted to a powertorque engine.

Thanks Ted.
Regarding the G4 LM mix in the original carb, I recon that's why it was giving trouble starting, wonder she ever ran with a mix of parts.
Would like to keep it as original as possible but with the emulsion tube dilemma I may have no choice but to use a LM. Would liked to have used the jet with the bigger bore (if that's what it's called) but that's the one without the gauze.

"The idle knob was made obsolete by Victa as the average consumer was dialing the idle way too low and was causing issues like fouled plugs and blocked mufflers as the oil was not burning out of the fuel mixture".
Very handy to know....
In the chart the jet size for the S-600 is 38-40, does that indicate bigger (bore)?

Thanks for the chart, I have it saved but this is part of the reason for my confusion, I had no idea the specs relate only to LM and powertorque. I suppose the G4 jets didn't have the 'rings' to designate their size?
Edit: Looking back at an older post Rodeobob said: "The straight inlet jet has two circles on the face". Was relating to a Powerplus.

Be great if you found a Powerplus muffler.

Would still like some clarification on the emulsion tube if you, or someone can.

The one you would need is the plain faced one on the right in the photo. In the full crank models there was only 2 jets i'm aware of. The plain face for the 160cc and the 1 ring for the 125cc.
The s-600 powertorque runs a smaller jet and a larger diameter intake snorkel.

As for the emulsion tube, what clarification would you lke. Post up some pictures of the underside of the jet and carby where the jet screws in.

Thanks bigted.
Did some measurements today with a vernier and as far as I can tell the end of the jet go's into the tube in the body (?)
Some pic's:



This is one of the G4 body's.


This is the three jets from "G4's" on left and one from a Powertorque on right. They are all plain faced.

Sorry their not as sharp as I would have hoped.

Took a lot to get the Super started today, may be a combination of me putting to much oil in the crank, bore etc and the 2 stroke fuel getting a little old. Did however notice a not very convincing spark unless turned over pretty fast (i.e. drill). Comments?.
Once I used the drill she fired and ran very well. Warmed up at a fast idle for about 5 minutes, then ran through rev range a bit to max about half throttle, idled down then ran out of fuel after about 3 more minutes. Will get fresh fuel on Monday.
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Bushie, they're all the same jet, off the carbies with the fixed emulsion tube, like the one in the pic. Check the air gap on the coil to flywheel for spark, otherwise try another coil to see if it improves.

Thanks for your quick reply.
So the longer length body. black poppet and the idle screw mean nothing?
I thought I read the air gap isn't adjustable on these?

The different bodies, and black poppet valve definitely mean something but be careful as the carbs have probably been bastardized over the years. I think the idle screw caps are interchangeable but i can't recall for sure, try them and see if they fit.

Well it seems like I haven't even seen a G4, the only thing I can think off is there must have been some differences during the change over period.
The early LM or late G4, with the emulsion tube, seems to be running well, with the short testing (running in) period given to it. Have some other commitments to attend to and haven't got back to it yet. Getting anxious as it is so close to being finished now and pretty positive it is only electrics in the way. BTW magnets seem strong as picked up a 12" screw driver no worries [thanks Grumpy (archives)].

Any positive answer on whether the air gap on the coil is adjustable on these?

It seemed to me that there were only two threaded holes and no slots to slide the coil in or out(?)
Will try another coil too.

Still very keen to get the right muffler.

Managed to get back to the rebuild for a short time this evening. There is a little room for some adjustment in the mounting holes on the coil, could get a feeler gauge into one side OK but the arm on the right (looking at the carby) requires some further thought. Tested the coil, and one other one, with a multimeter and believe them both to be within parameters.

As for the air gap, i'm not 100% sure of the gap but the ol' business card trick normally works for me.

Thought I had read about this somewhere:

Thread: https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=38865

Particularly Tomo's post:

and Mark's post:

Mark and Tomo, could you expand on this, ie have you tried it and does it work in practice?

Hello Bushie,
Thanks Big ted and Grumpy for steering Bushie in the right direction regarding his tight rings. (terrible oversight by me)

Bushie, that thread above is referring to an internal magneto.



I have measured the coil above and got 6.1 kilo Ohms for the secondary coil and 1.24 Ohms for the primary coil.

Like Bigted, I use a card or visitors card like in the image and stick the magneto to the flywheel magnets, then torque the bolts down.

If you want to read some magneto patents, search magneto pdf's at freepatentsonline.
Some of these go into great depth.
Example:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4401096.pdf

Thanks Bigted and Mark.

First thing this morning changed to another module, a little improved spark, then used a snipped down card, same as you showed above Mark (penny finally dropped).
Pleased I didn't start drilling over sized holes, did realize there is enough play in original holes to allow such a small adjustment. This made another improvement in the sparks frequency, and probably would have been able to start engine with pull cord, but still not that evasive 'big blue spark'.
Studied how to check with multimeter last night, so tested with multimeter and found the primary coil was 10,930 ohms. Went to my Powerplus engine coil and checked that, was 6,060 and secondary OK. Cleaned the faces, gaped..... and Bingo! Big Blue Spark!!
Naturally put that on the Super and can now honestly join the 'Fist Pull Start Club"...from cold.



Needless to say am very happy with the outcome and should finish assembly tomorrow.

Hey Bushie,
as far as ignition modules go the power torque module is fine to plug and play on your full crank engine its much the same as the original module .

the post on fitting full cranks with electronic ignition has to do with the older points system as it has timing adjustment.
its looking good !!
cheers tomo

Thanks to Mark Electric, Big ted, Chris125, Deejay, Tomo4192 and Grumpy who helped me immensely during this rebuild and posting. Your help with the ring expander problem Bigted was of great importance, along with the carby and coil help, very much appreciated.

Oh well they say a picture is worth a thousand words:












Still waiting to get the 'windrower' attended to, will probably paint it black, like the '24's', as I'm really over that cheap orange.

Will slash some grass and do a summary soon.

Well Bushie, i think the end result looks awesome. Well done!

A couple of more shots, maybe never this fresh and clean again.....





then into the work!



Started first pull from cold again, warmed up for a few minutes then knocked of the tops of some thin grass for 15 minutes, varying the speed, then into the above. Crikey it's got some power! Started second pull from hot.

Tried to adjust governed speed but the revs it was doing was freaking me out, that is especially with no load, and it didn't seem to make any difference.
Earlier in the rebuild, when looking at the three stripped carbys, I picked what I thought by eye, was the heavier gauge of the three outer (long) springs, and used that.
Maybe a case of bigger not necessarily better?

Great job with the rebuild mate, looks great.
You should be able to knock the revs back by turning the venturi in the cowling where the governor vacuum line connects, just push it in a little and turn from memory, clockwise?? i think. It does not take much to make a difference.

Thanks Luke, very good explanation of what I was trying to do today. Sorry didn't make myself clear in last post. I turned it both ways but couldn't notice a difference, meanwhile the engine was screaming it's a$$ off, which can't be good for the engine. I didn't have the courage to keep persisting with it.

To slow your engine down, here are some other things to try:
# Remove the hose were the red arrow is pointing above. You should not be able to blow air through it (should be sealed by the diaphragm).
# You can try a lighter spring in the carby.
# You can place a shim or shims under the rotating cam inside the carby.

Others here may have more tips, or expand on this post.

Awesome Bushie looks the goods best part is your got the old 2t Victas almost worked out no Victa 2t you can't take on now good stuff....Myself I'm not fond of the older black poppet valve carbies, I find the newer carbies off the power torque mowers to be a better carb Victa not change them for nothing...

Finally got back to look at the Super. Had read, in the meantime, that the outer long spring in the carby would only account for a few hundred revs, was certainly looking for a larger adjustment than that.
First did the test Mark suggested, blow in the governor tube, sure enough air was passing through. Tested another one that was rebuilt, just to confirm the amount of air pressure. Popped the cap off..... yeah the diaphragm was indeed crinkled down, just a little, simple fix.

Gave her a run (second pull start from cold this time) and thought it could rev a fair bit more so turned the venturi control, which Luke suggested. This time there there were definite substantial changes in revs, albeit from sounding to low to to high, probably should have persisted longer.

Thanks Chris for the accolade. Took on board re the power torque carb and was thinking of fitting one, but thought I would give the old carby another try.

Never the less a positive improvement for the better. Thanks heaps guys.

One thing that helped my rebuild was this lever pictured below. Had read on ODK a few folk were having a awkward time remounting the top clip on the muffler.

A small rod is put through the hole in the end of the spring (in this case a nail)
I scraped off the electrical tape on the front side of lever to allow freer sliding of the nail down the lever. the tape was put on to preserve the paint.


This is a side view, the chamfered edge goes toward the muffler to allow the nail to run down. Probably would round this off more, almost to points and up the lever more, before I do another one. I did hold pressure on the lever and tap the nail down, a little on both sides, with a tack hammer.


It works really well!


This idea was given to me by an old time mower repairer.