OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Collectors Corner Identification of Particular Machines Victa Model 4 Automatic Specifications

These ads give a nice indication of production rates over 1958 and 1959. 150,000 mowers between February '58 and March '59!:

February 21, 1958 - Daily Mirror


February 9, 1958 - Sydney Morning Herald


November 23, 1958 - Sydney Morning Herald


March 22, 1959 - Sydney Morning Herald



These figures could prove quite useful in working out a date/serial number correlation also.

Hi Unkie, and welcome back mate, we have all missed you around here, and thanks for this info...as Jonesy has said, in another thread, this is terrific for this valuable archive.
Many thanks mate,

Yeah Unki, thats pumping them out and could be why there are still so many Model 5 series 1 mowers about. but even the last add was 5 months before the predicta Automatic finished and they were prodominant in all adds (or model 4 Specials)but must not have contributed to many of the 150,000 numbers?

agreed on the production rates - I had no idea they were pumping out that many. What I do like about those ads is that they give us a rough idea about which month they had reached each serial number:

Feb 58 - #150,000
Nov 58 - #250,000
March 59 - #300,000

what is most interesting is that if they had reached #150,000 by feb, they had already gone well past known production numbers for the automatic, as we know to be likely no later than #130,000. Food for thought.

Here's a nice image of Merv with what I think may be one of the first true Specials:




What is great about this image is it shows the first Special badge we had been discussing earlier, and also a bunch of other details about how the mower was set up. Plastic throttle, toe guard with the loop fittings, and the slit in the front axle housing - also notice the rear nut above the slit on that housing? It's larger than the front one. Why would they have two different size nuts? This explains it:



So the idea was, you were supposed to adjust the height of the mower as usual then tighten the wheel adjusting lock nut with the spanner to lock the height in position. I'm guessing the slit and large nut was introduced to remedy the issue of the the mower losing height through vibration. Perhaps the groove is designed to compress?

Love the image with merv unkie! Note the pullstart carry over and its running the plastic throttle control as well, this id have to agree would be on of the earliest since they abandoned the throttle at this time and also the starter. The starter wasnt reintroduced again until much later in the model 5 run. Model 5 Series 2 I believe. More fantastic info unkie, this thread is fast becoming the premium place for concise info on these models. Thanks to yourself and fellow members. I hope I too can contribute more in the future.

That was my understanding of the height adjustment proceedure exactly, that badge! Hmmmmmm! I wont one

I also just noticed it looks to have the Circlip carby too??? or maybe not. it just looks very square on the edge at the top near the cable entry?? or maybe not

Found these images of the front and back flaps in an old ODK thread and thought it I would repost them here (hope that's ok Blumby!):



They still have the rubber guards which aren't often seen. I've been told that these were available in an aftermarket form at some point, but differ from the originals by not having the Victa logo stamped on the reverse.

here is the original thread for those that are interested:
Predicta flaps

Also, a rear flap has come up on ebay at the moment. For anyone that plans on bidding (not me!), It's worth mentioning that it is missing a bunch of parts including the height adjuster lever, idler adjusment screw and carburettor setting slide, plus the cable. Also the operating arm looks to just about rusted through, but aside from that it's all there lol. at $450 it is probably already overpriced, especially considering its condition, but it'll be interesting to see how high it goes!

Also, cheers Blue - I've not had much time of late to post on here, but I get a real kick out of finding info on these mowers and sharing it - for what it's worth.

And Jonesy, regarding the image with Merv, I reckon that one of those badges may just turn up some day. Maybe they were just made of cardboard or some other perishable material, hence their rarity? At least we know now that they did exist!

I was re-reading this entire Topic the other day and noticed these rubber toe guards as they are listed as, they are on page 3 and some good shots of them, number 5 on the exploded veiw says "saftey rim & rubber toe guards" referring to the bolt on guards and these. More wonders and hard to get parts
and yes I am following the ebay rear flap closely even though not complete is better than the one I have now

Thought it would be good to demonstrate the variation in fuel caps as we haven't covered it in any great detail. Fuel cap designs varied considerably over the life of the Model 4 Automatic, Model 4 Special and Model 5 Special. The image below shows four known variations that were adopted over life of those models.

Beginning with the top left, this version was used on the Automatic and as with the front Predicta flap, is a made of a clear/white plastic, painted with Hammertone. This example came from an Automatic with a serial number in the 117,000s.

Top right we have the version that is most often confused with the "true" Automatic fuel cap. It differs most significantly in that it is made from non-transparent green plastic, and is not painted. This example came off a Model 4 Special with a serial number in the 154,000's.

Bottom left is the version adopted early in the life of the Model 5 Series 1. Black unpainted plastic, with the Victa logo. This example came off an early run M5S1 with a serial number in the 189,000's.

Bottom right is the plain black fuel cap used for the majority of the Model 5's existence. The precise point at which this final state was adopted is not yet clear, but this example came from a Model 5 Series 2 in the 290,000s.

People have been known to try and pass of the second version as the true Automatic version from time to time. The easiest way to differentiate between the two is simply look at the back of the cap, as seen in images 2 and 3.

If I've gotten anything wrong, let me know fellas!

Perfect! Nothing wrong here I can confirm. The first example as you state is definately the early type and came as a white/opaque and they vary in texture due to time. It has been disputed by many these didnt exist, but I think they expected white to mean snow white, this wasnt the case as it is more clear or opaque. Id even been told they were rejects, also not the case as many examples exist. The second is the same green as the groove covers and oil nips. Perfect examples of the correct caps and timeline for each Unkie.

Yes I can confirm this information also, I actually got a shock to start with when I stripped the paint off my 112,000 auto to find the cap clear, good work Unki, by the way the rear flap on EBay sold for $817 plus postage, it is not being posted to me

$817! Damn, I thought about paying $400 max on it - somebody sure wanted it. Especially given the last one to come up was on the mower that started this thread, which sold for $850 with the mower attached. It shows that if you get two people that really want something, the sky is the limit with these prices.

Jonesy and Blue, regarding the first style fuel cap, do any of your other model 4's have one?

Made an interesting find today. the following Special is up on ebay at the moment:




It doesn't look like much, but its serial number is #162,577. This would be the earliest M5S1 I have seen, and combined with Jonesy's model 4 #161,127 (see post 48934), it looks like we may have nailed the serial number at which the Model 5 base was introduced.

I have a model 4 in the 154,000s so we can be pretty sure that side is pretty much confirmed, but a few more M5S1's in the mid 160,000 range would certainly close the case as to when the Model 5 was introduced.

In short, I reckon it would be safe to say that the Model 4 ended and the M5S1 began at around 161,000. Any thoughts?

Both my autos have the clear cap unkie. I have a few spares of both but they wernt on mowers, just ones ive picked up. Sounds good for the model intersection, we can see what examples show up. Im still interested in the plain m4s and serial sequence end for the auto. My main curiosity is these later than 128, 000 autos that some say exist (would like more concise comfirmation off those who have these examples) as I am still in possession of an original m4 non auto with a 129, 000 serial,and im almost certain they never offered both the m4 auto and m4 std togehter. It was a case of m4 auto was canned then the m4 non auto carried on until the model 5 s1. Anyway I really want to see some later confirmed unrestored original autos after this serial as none seem to have come forward unless im mistaken

Thanks for the confirmation on the fuel caps Blue - case closed on that one! Regarding the discontinuation of the Automatic proper, I agree that they likely never passed the 128,000 serial. Nothing we have yet seen would suggest otherwise.

Regarding the model 4 Special and the Automatic running side by side, I keep thinking back to the ad from March 58 (see post 48792) that advertises all three simultaneously. I can only imagine that at this point they had already recognised the Automatic was destined for failure and were looking for an alternative flagship model to transition to. This same ad is also the last mention of the automatic I could find, so it probably supports the theory of a phase out.

I'm tentatively leaning towards the full 110,000 to 128,000 being Automatics with unbadged Model 4 "Specials" running from 128,000 through to 162,000. Granted a good portion of the 128 - 162,000 were model 3's. Obviously most of the Automatics were reverted to Specials as the components failed, so that just adds to the confusion. My collector friend recalled an anecdote a former Victa dealer told him - The gist of it being that dealers were instructed by Victa to revert Automatics free of charge any time they were brought in.

I did a little more digging to find out when the Special badge (the existing type) first appeared in ads and came up with this:

November 28, 1958 - Sydney Morning Herald



Supporting the theory that November was the month of the plastic badge's introduction is that this ad appears next to images depicting the first state (mock up?) badge as seen in the photo with Merv (see above). What this may show is that Specials were being sold all the way from March to November 58' without a badge.

One last tidbit for this post. According to John Mason, the introduction of the folding handlebars was one of Victa's most significant developments. It enabled them to fit the mower inside a shipping box, along with a fuel can and funnel. Notice the funnel sitting on top of the fuel cans in this image of a dealer display:




Here is that funnel, in the correct green and with its own part number:

Love the way it is used to measure the oil for mixing too, also more great investigating Unki.

Cheers mate! Yep that funnel is pretty cool. Pretty rare I'd reckon!

So I was thinking through this whole issue of when the model 4 ended and the model 5 began and also how all this relates to the introduction of the label �Special�. I was preoccupied with the introduction of the �Special� badge, as I considered it the marker for the transition, when I realised the answer had been staring me in the face the whole time.
We know the Model 4 ran on the Mk 4 chassis and the Model 5 ran on the Mk5 chassis, but at no point had I thought to compare the two schematic chassis diagrams side by side. The Victa models were always named after the chassis they were fitted with, so logically, variations in theses chassis define the transition from one model to the next.

Much of the discussion had focused primarily on the skirt holes which appear on the edge of the die cast base. Four holes equal a Model 4 chassis and two holes equals a Model 5, or so I thought. A side by side comparison of the chassis schematics tell a different story. The diecast base alone does not define the chassis, but rather it�s the components those bases were fitted with that determines the model.

This early schematic of the Mk5 chassis (see below), is significant for four quite distinct reasons. First and foremost, the die cast base plate is identical to that of the Mk 4 chassis, ie four holes rather than two. Secondly, the only difference between the two chassis is the absence of a name badge on the handle bars, which is incidentally illustrated with a part number in the Mk4 chassis schematic. Finally of note, the absence of Automatic style side skirts (which is substituted with the round toe ring), and the edger groove cover, for which no cover is present. That�s it, no other differences. For all intents and purposes, the original Mk 5 chassis was simply a stripped down version of the Mk4 chassis with the substitution of a toe ring.

What to make of all this? I think it can be concluded that the �Special� was introduced on an early Mk 5 chassis, which, according to the schematics, originally had the same diecast base as the Mk4. It was released without a badge and with a toe ring. We know the �Special� was released on or before March 9, 1958 (see post 48987), and that it appears the plastic name badge was not introduced until late November 58� (see post 53190). This all supports the case for the Model 5 Special having been released unbadged, with a toering and without an edger slot cover, and most importantly, all riding on a four holed, Mk4 style diecast base.

In short, all those �stripped down Model 4�s� with serial numbers after 128,000 we've been seeing are actually Model 5 Specials without a badge.

Further confirmation of all this would be to check if later copies of the Mk5 chassis and Mk5a engine schematics for amendments, so if any of you fellas have one please post a scan here!

I only have the same as you have above as far as the schematics go, I do have the same erea for the 5A engine,





All very interesting Unki and I would also like to know of the different part # for the series 1,2&3 and if they even change, another interesting thing is the Romoto 1 & 2, Automatic and your 3rd scan all list the same part# for the plug spanner, #8-200 but in your second scan it shows the bent bar spanner for the toe ring as previously discussed, still a lot of grey areas will need to be cross referenced before we can put this one to bed I feel.

before we move to far away from the Fuel caps I have some images that I will put up because I have two that are green plasic but look to me to have original paint on them, firstly I thought I will show everyone what the clear/white cap looks like without paint.





this is it when painted and looking on the inside, as all can tell matches perfectly with the image Unki put up.




next are the only other green caps I have and they are all green plastic, one plain and two painted, the one on the left came off my outboard engine #131049, the one in the centre off Model 4 engine #125166 and the one on the right was not on a mower.

Cool stuff, so we can safely say that the fuel caps ran the clear type up to at least #117,000 and introduced the painted green plastic version some time before #125,000. I suspect the unpainted green cap arrived around the demise of the Automatic, so #130,000 or so, and ran all the way up to the introduction of the M5S1 base - wait and see I guess.

Just thought I would put up some pics of a nice example of a mostly original model 4 that was on ebay recently, I did contact the seller and gained permission to post the photos.

non original fuel cap, but has the non rubber mounted tank. Also nice set of wheels & all the edge bolts for the side flaps complete with springs and cups.





Very nice green rubber starter rubber on an early starter with the rounded lug over the spring roll pin, has the wrong single cable carby top.





Painted axel housings with green plastic oil nips and no slit in the front left housing. has the remnants of the front flap.






Engine # 112370 over 2, mower 460 before mine. badge in nice condition too.







I would have liked to see the choke and throttle.