OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Collectors Corner Identification of Particular Machines Victa Model 4 Automatic Specifications

You found my Automatic on google? Curious? Arh yes the story with this one is that the bloke I got it off his father bought it new and when the front flap broke off he had it converted to the throttle set-up,and had the side guards removed as well(Unfortunately he could never find them,bugger).Then ran it for a few years until it stopped running (Still haven't had time to see if it goes).Bought a newer mower and then stored it under the house until a few years after his passing and then sold it to me.It had never had the engine changed,it did have the top and bottom seals changed (the bottom seal was leaking),which apparently the father did.As he did like to play around with mechanical things.I guess that's why it has some sort of sealant along the side.I just wish he could have found the side guards,I bet there still under the house.Also it would have been good if the brackets for the front flap weren't broken either as there are a few people making repo versions of them.

Blumby's? Wow, thanks for being so forthcoming with all that info! That Google sure is a curious thing, the way you just type things in and it finds stuff lol. Nah, the truth is, I actually have his mower in my loungeroom as we speak, and am looking for sweet ransom

It was brought to my attention that a series of engineering drawings surfaced some years back that detail the front and rear Predicta assemblies. As mentioned in earlier posts, the release date for the Automatic is proven to be no later than the 24th of August, 1957 as demonstrated by this Canberra Times advertisement of the same date:




The engineering drawings, which are dated 17/5/57 for part No 6-004 - Back Carrier Plate, 24/5/57 part No 6-005- Front Carrier Arm Cover, and 20/9/57 part No 6-006- Front Carrier Arm, pose some interesting questions.

Whilst the first two drawings are comfortably dated three months or more BEFORE the confirmed release date, indicating when the development phase of the mower was underway, the final drawing post-dates the release date by almost a full month.

To be frank, this initially confused the hell out of me...Why would a drawing be done after the release of the product? Then I remembered this earlier image of the front Predicta setup, which I originally assumed must have been a concept drawing:



To confirm that this was not simply a design in concept alone, I rechecked other images of the front mechanism. The following is a photo from the Automatic manual, and matches the above image (take note in particular of the right hand carrier arm), confirming this design for the front carrier arm extended beyond concept and into production :






Compare now the following images, again, with particular attention to the right hand carrier arm:






Now how do we reconcile all this information? Why would an Engineering drawing post date the release of the Predicta, and why would two different carrier arm designs be known to have existed, beyond design and into production?

There appears to be only one possible explanation , that being, nearly a month after the release of the Automatic, the original design had proven to be faulty, requiring a rapid redesign of the offending component, and in all likelyhood, a recall of all existing Automatics for upgrading with the amended component. The Women�s Weekly advertisement of the 4th of December, 1957 (pictured above)confirms the newly amended carrier arm had been adopted by this date, and also marks the start of an aggressive advertising campaign for the Automatic. Did they think they�d finally worked out all of the bugs?

So what can we conclude from all this? Here is a breakdown of events as far as I can determine:

17/5/57 � Automatic in design/engineering phase
24/8/57 � Automatic on sale
20/9/57 � Updated carrier arm designed, and likely recall after this date.
4/12/57 � Updated carrier arm adopted, also the commencement of a major nationwide advertising campaign
13/3/58 � Last advertised mention of the Automatic

It can be concluded that the front Predicta setup did indeed appear in two forms well into production, but even the amended design was not enough to save the Automatic from its ultimate demise. Do any examples of the first version front Predicta still exist? Yet to be confirmed...

Ill throw another spanner in the works... The Owners Manual in your post isnt the First....There was a five page manual in foolscap with text only.

This in my opinion will possibly reinforce your evidence of This Front Carrier Arm Variant.

Now A manual MUST have been provided at sale yes? So If they were still amending the front Carrier Arm Assy a month after the release as you say,would this Text only manual not suffice until the Pictorial Manual was printed?...Why print a whole new manual a month or so later..EXPENSIVE!

So if you check your parts manual,you should see the Carrier arm assy has the PT no 6-006 yes? Or,If the other Arm was actually released on a few earlier models,perhaps a Note of amendment or superceded pt no reference would be in the Catalogue? If the parts Catalogue doesnt list another front carrier arm PT no,then this might prove the earlier carrier arm was either A: Never actually released OR B: (More likely) Recalled and retro fitted with the new carrier as you Suggested:)

All very credible evidence Unkie!!! ....See if you can confirm this pt no 6-006 in the Victa Parts catalogue is the only one listed if you havnt already...Would be nice to see a match:)




Page 1 of The Early Automatic Manual.

Another Automatic...

This Thread was posted a while back by ODK Memeber "Secondcut". If there are no objections,I feel this link To his Information needs to be placed here for quick reference. Hopefully he will return soon with news of his progress:)

Although incomplete,this is possibly the Earliest displayed Automatic we will ever see.
Engine no 10107. Yes thats Automatic mower No 107. ( I wonder did this old girl get recalled for a new front Flap carrier Unkie?) A shame its got no Remnants...If only I could talk Predicta,sighs*....lols.





Link to the original thread;


https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/u...ords=automatic&Search=true#Post41463

Hi to Mal, Unkie and all contributors to this thread;

Your request to have the 2 or 3 threads on early Victa mowers posted in the last couple of months rationalised, has been discussed with the moderators. These posts, regarding technical issues, are of great interest to Victa 2 stroke collectors.

We feel that when finally sorted out that this could be an accurate archive of museum quality, that perhaps would be the best available on this subject, on the net, and contributed to as more info is discovered. We must also be careful not to use any copyright material (including photos) without permission and/or attribution.

We also feel that there might only need to be 2 threads; one concerning model-to-model differences, and one specific to the Automatic (Predicta). Both threads would be placed in Collectors' Corner >> Identification of Particular Machines, (which we feel would be the best place for them) without the need to create a new sub-forum, if we can sort out the thread titles, so as to keep them focused.

I will be the mod to set this up with your help, and, I will require your permission, (where necessary) to edit the posts for clarity and continuity....
I would also like to have your input as to which posts should be included in the archive.
Looking forward to your replies....

Sound great Deejay. Im usure Unkies intentions,But with each new topic comes room for analasys,challenge and discussion in order to reach an accurate conclusion.
So far Unkie has provide fantastic images and information from various sources. Im sure we are well aware of copyright and would not put the sites credibilty at risk.
The original documents where possible,I will display from my own collection. I will NOT post images from other sites which have been posted by particular members with out their permission.

Unfortunatley Images of real examples are very scarce,especially complete examples. If momentum continues I will seek the original owners permission to post Images of their mowers or documentation they have relating to any of the early examples...As a few exist on other Forums.
As far as im aware any information on Google images can be used,as the owner no longer has any rights to it,but ill check this again. Actually just about anything you post on the net belongs to...THE NET Lols.

It is my opinion,That We research,challenge and assess every bit of info until we reach an accurate conclusion on each topic of uncertainty.

The forum format you suggested is fine. Any factual and accurate info,including images,and documentation can be placed directly into a sub forum or thread if its proven to be conclusive and accurate.
A general thread like this one can be for Questions,presented info,ideas,speculation and anything else yet to be proven.

Whatever you wish to do is fine by me,Ill just keep contributing and learning as much as I can.

Any Info will be greatly appreciated by any memeber,so please dont hesitate to speak up and ask questions or offer opinions,assumptions or challenges.

Great stuff Deejay, I whole-hartedly agree that this could become quite a significant resource, if not THE resource. As far as permission to amend anything I've posted, fire away!

Happy to help in any way I can

That doc is a great contribution, Blue! Did it Come with one of your Model 4s? If, so we can establish a serial number link with the production of the pictorial manual!

I'm not sure if the typed manual confirms the the existence of the front carrier arm variant into production, but sure doesn't harm the theory either.

I've been discussing the issue with a very well resourced collector(if not the best resourced, from what I can gather)and he has shed some light on the matter. Where to begin...

The operating manual offers conflicitng information. It pictures the front Predicta flap in two states. The first, as pictured in the above black and white photograph, is of the first state, while the diagram showing how to adjust the front mechanism is of the second state.

The parts manual, also offers some intriguing info. Not published until October 58, the "Predicta Assembly - Mark 1" diagram illustrates the second state.

The parts list notes the part in question (6-005) as not having an alternative. What it does however list, is an alternative for the part number 6-025 (Rear cross rod, grooved (early model Predicta)) which appears as number 15 in the schematic drawing. Part number 6-026 (Rear cross rod clip (early model Predicta)) which appears as number 23 in the schematic drawing.

What to make of all this? Well after an at-length discussion with the previously mentioned collector, we made some inroads into possible scenarios. Either the photograph from the user manual is of a prototype that didn't pass into production, or it did go into production, but not long enough to appear in the User Manual. Alternatives for part numbers 6-025 and 6-026 indicate their was revision to the rear Predicta setup, but it would be assumed such revisions would also be noted for the front flap, had they been made. Either way, the Predicta did appear in two states, just not as I had thought.

It was also brought to my attention that the advertisement of the 24th of August, 1957, does state "order now" suggesting they may not have had them in stock, and were anticipating a forecast release date, so whilst we can confirm without doubt, that the design/development and production of the Automatic was underway by this time, we cannot be sure they were actually in stores...ugh.

In summary, It seems more likely that the photograph in the User Manual is that of a prototype that didn't make it to the point of sale - but this can only be confirmed by the engineering drawing I mentioned earlier. If I can see it in the flesh, then I may be able to go further.

Oh, and those Predicta parts I had that I couldn't Identify?

Part #6-015 (Carburettor setting slide) - Number 12 in the rear Predicta flap assembly schematic

Part #6-023 (Idler adjustment spring) - Number 21 in the rear Predicta flap assembly schematic

Yes my thoughts exactly!. When we were talking about the transition and the difference between a possible 2 models I started to think..(yes dangerous I know) Why it did take so long to release a manual.
Theory 1,

Were Amendments still being made up to 2,000 mowers after release? (Taking into account My serial run of 111954). Unfortuntaley My other Auto has no documents so would offer no light other than it being in high 112,000 range,still Early in the Run.

I agree with your assumption on the manual.
Theory 2,

The conflicting images in the manual to me also,would more likely prove that the Image on the cover is the Amended/ealrier Mower that may have been superceded( The one originally designed from the begining). Again ill point out the use of prior/earlier images for later models. Id say the artwork for the mower was done and left as is since it didnt differ greatly to the revised model,only a different part that would go unoticced by most. The fact the Repair manual came out a year later with REAR amendments listed only and NOT Front,might prove that the Flap in the original diagram was never actually released...:) The rear amendments were probably made due to a design fault that presented itself after it was released.


No this manual is text only. It does make reference to a knurled nut on the front flap assy,but im still tring to undertsand its meaning,think its just to adjust throttle speed. hard too tell without a diagram. ...If its relevent ill inform you.

Ok so My mower is 111954. This is 2,000 mowers after release.

It was bought from the original owner with this paper work and a short story,similar to blumblys.
The front flap broke early in its life and was replaceded. It broke again and then was reverted to std form (by Cant think of the name now,a large mower shop in canberra) who serviced it most of its life. 1 guard broke in time and he removed both.
The mower was still used up until the time I bought it 2 years ago. The really crazy thing about this mower was The man I got to pick it up for me who worked at the original site,(now a mechanical and radiator store) was the same guy who serviced it for the last 25 years of its life when the site was still repairing mowers....

Anyways 2,000 mowers passed would be more than enough time to amend the updated parts and release a correct manual yes?

Dont worry to much about the Order now" reference as its not so important or alters too much,the point is that they were probably being made by this time and confirming orders....Generally you have something to offer before taking orders.

I wonder if in the next few posts we could touch on Starters" for the Auto if possible Unkie.

I would like to confirm the 2 (or possibly 3) starter Variants existed to this model. ( although I dont think Option 3 was released this early)

The First and earliest plain housing, No Visible Spring Reataing Pin with centre dog nut. (Only ever seen a handful of these,leading me to believe they failed on the early models).
The Second with the Visible spring retaining pin and dog nut.
And if the plain starter with visible spring retaining pin and NO dog nut existed on this model.

Could you possibly check the parts Cat and see If and why the Early starter was ammended? As I think it was Pin failure?

Another Item needing clarification

I'll have to get back to you on the starter variations, but one thing I do know, as it was confirmed by that collector I mentioned, is that that the rubber handle cover and grommet on the height adjustment rod were both green, not black.

Also we can be pretty sure that the housing with no visible retaining nut was still in use up to the 118,000s as it appears on that mower pictured at the start of this thread, and is also apparent from the earliest illustrations - a few more examples would be nice to see. Only a few possibilities to explain the variation that I can think of; either they were fitting the first variant in conjunction with the second variant, which seems unlikely, or the second variant is a much later non-original addition, or there was a changeover some time after #118,746.


I'll see what I can find out...

Anytime Unkie Thanks:)

And yes,The rubbber boot for the starter and height adjust only came in green rubber. Did someone tell you otherwise? Im Sorry,I didnt know this was on your unconfirmed list Ive Never heard of Black being used Ever.

In quick addition the ALL groove covers,oil nips and sheerline front flap cover were all made of green plastic. If you look closely on a good example you will see a very subtle marble pattern running through it.

Wait unkie...The mower at the start of the thread has the dog nut:) Do You mean WITH" the Visible nut right? It is the earliest starter (my option 1) I never noticed either! Cooool So thats another one. That starter is the same as the one on the cover of the users manual,and the one I really wanted to confirm as being the First original Starter on the Automatic,as both mine have this type. .....Thanks for spotting that Unkie,id missed it, Seems they carried on a lot longer thatn id thought to. BUT why are there none around? So yes another confirmation of the first starter type,just wonder when they changed to the next type? maybee it was around the time you suggest,since most claimed autos ive seen have the later style. .....hopefully the manual will tell,and another piece will be confirmed and finished.

did you notice in the youtube links you put up that the automatic had a rubber under the tank strap?????

Well spotted Jonesy, also did you notice that the front and rear axle clamps and height adjusters in the video are unpainted....from all of the original pics and illustrations I've seen...they were all painted green!

Never noticed,but your right Jonesy...Ive heard reference in the past by some collectors about this topic. The general concesus is that the Automatic Did NOT come with this cowl as it was not released until well and truly after the Automatic was made. In fact the model 3,4,and 5 series 1 at least,did not recieve this cowl.

A few say otherwise,but ive seen no ads,example or reference to this cowl being used on the Automatic or the 3 models following ...The only way to exact truth would be to check the parts manual or archived Adverts around 1957 to 60 and see if it is listed as a later fittment.

The breakdown would be Cowl,tank,tankstrap and nut,strap rubber and four rubber feet/supports/dampeners. It is my opinion that this cowl was not released until somewhere into the model 5 sereis 2 run. Any releveant info to the contrary would be appreciated.

Too be Confirmed....

And your right Dejay...Although it has been proven that the Automatic did actually come with and without painted housings...I intially thought it was the first few thousand and died of with the finish of the axle nips,but ive since seen some later examples,showing they may have possibly gone longer. Great spotting this stuff guys,as it adds for more topics to be clarified.!

Yeah, spotted that mate - not sure what to make of it.

After It was drawn to my attention that the earliest Automatic advertisement from the Canberra times stated "order now", I did a little more digging to find a sale date that confirmed Automatics were in-stock, and came up with these:

19 Sep 1957 - Nepean Times



03 Oct 1957 - The Canberra Times



So we can be sure that the Automatic was at the very least available for pre-order on the 24th of August, it was certainly in store in both Sydney by the 19th of September and Canbberra by the 3rd of October. The chronology is starting to come together..

Awesome Unkie,This clarifies your intial dates of Sept and Oct before you found the August AD...So that settles it then. The first Autos came on sale Sept 57.

Good work once again Unkie, but the time has come I feel to move this thread to its new home in Collectors' Corner.

What I plan to do initially is move the whole thread under a new title in the "Identification of Particular Machines" topic and we need to come up with a suitable title....I was thinking along the lines of..."Victa 18 Automatic/Predicta with Dating and ID Guide".

Can you guys put your thinking caps on and think of a more suitable title?
Looking forward to your replies.