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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 702
Likes: 3
Senior Contributor
I recently stripped down my Rover Rider Heavy Duty. The engine that was on it was a Honda G400 and too big for the machine. You can see where it had been held on by three bolts on a wide angle. What has surprised me is the original holes are also on a slightly eccentric angle. Those holes were for B&S 4135-170402 (7HP) and 4148-19042 and 195432 (8HP) and Honda 4190-G300 QZDF (7HP). Yet when I look at the parts diagram for the Heavy Duty it clearly shows the mounting holes perfectly straight on the plate. So I am a bit confused. Has my plate been replaced at some time? It was obviously extended by an operator at some point in time, with an extra piece welded on to cater for the massive Honda G400.

Is that normal for the engine to be running on a slight angle to the transmission belt? I'd guess it is around an 8 degree angle, off square. It is hard to tell from the photos from the time if the engine was straight or on a slight angle.

Of course the new Chonda engine has entirely different mounting holes and the drive shaft is about 2 inches too low. I see that I can get a riser for my new GX160/200 Honda clone, which raises it a full 2". I may have to buy one or get one made.

P.S. Hopefully Chonda have the same mounting holes as Honda GX160/200?

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Joined: Jan 2016
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SENIOR TECHNICIAN
They run on a slight angle to make it a bit easier on the belt, it is working hard enough swapping from a vertical pulley to a horizontal one as it is, anything to make it a bit easier on the belt.
If you are going to drill new holes just make sure you have the belt on so you can a adjust the belts otherwise you will end up having to buy new belts

Joined: Sep 2015
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SENIOR TECHNICIAN & HISTORIAN
Yes I don't think it makes a lot of difference if the motor is a little one way or the other Vm as the V belt will just run in
a different position on the larger cutter shaft pulley.

Cheers
Max.

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Joined: Jan 2017
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Thanks. I guess I had always just assumed that the belt that drives the wheels should be straight. In fact it looks like it was also on a slight angle.

I am beginning to think I am wasting my time and should just put the old engine back on. I went to a motor "expert" and he told me the Honda GX-200 will not have the correct torque to drive this machine properly. Does he know what he is talking about?

The G300 torque was 1.5 kg·m; 10.8 lbf·ft at 3,600 rpm.

The GX-200 torque is 1.3 kg·m, 9.0 ft·lb) at 2,500 rpm (about 1.8 kg.m at 3,600).

All three have a maximum RPM of 3600.

G300 had 7 HP.

GX-200 has 6.5 HP. The Chonda clone I purchased is rated at 7 HP, which might be boasting a little.

So the GX-200 has a little less HP but equivalent torque. Personally I can't see the problem, or am I missing something?

Joined: Jan 2016
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SENIOR TECHNICIAN
Seeing you have bought the new motor might as well put it on, only way you will find out if is suited or not and because it is only 7hp you won't need the battery start, you can pull start it

1 member likes this: vint_mow
Joined: Sep 2015
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SENIOR TECHNICIAN & HISTORIAN
Originally Posted by vint_mow
Thanks. I guess I had always just assumed that the belt that drives the wheels should be straight. In fact it looks like it was also on a slight angle.

I haven't see any images of the alignment on the drive belt to the wheels.

While it is true that slight misalignment of V-belt pulleys may not lead to immediate failure, it is generally recommended to keep V-belt pulleys as perfectly aligned as possible for several important reasons:

Increased Wear: Misalignment can cause the belt to wear unevenly and more quickly than it would if the pulleys were in proper alignment. This can lead to premature belt failure and the need for more frequent replacements.

Efficiency Loss: Misaligned pulleys can create additional friction, which can reduce the efficiency of power transfer from one pulley to the other. This may result in decreased performance of the driven equipment.

Heat Generation: Misalignment can lead to increased heat generation in the belt and pulleys. Excessive heat can contribute to thermal degradation of the belt, leading to a shorter lifespan.

Noise and Vibration: Misalignment can result in increased vibration and noise during operation, which may not only be undesirable but could also eventually lead to further mechanical issues in the system.

Potential Damage to Equipment: Over time, persistent misalignment can cause stress on components, leading to damage in the bearings, shafts, or other hardware associated with the belt drive system.

Cheers
Max.

Joined: Jan 2017
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Senior Contributor
And yet misaligned it is Max. You can see the misalignment in the original mounting plate. Incidentally, possibly because of this misalignment, Rover did not use a V-belt to drive the wheels. They had their own special traction or link belt, which is no longer available today. At least I've never been able to find anything like it today. Apparently if the belt got lose you could just remove a link from the belt to tighten it. Rover Part No. A01398. Most operators since then have just used a standard A-33 belt.

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Joined: Sep 2015
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As far as I know Vm you've always been able to buy those Link Belts ,I've got a new one here somewhere.

I've( made up) adjusted these new link belts before to fit machinery in the past.

Advantages of this type of belting:

Highly Flexible, this belting can bend around small pulleys.
Wedging action stops slippage.
Adjustable links are detachable and interchangeable.
Able to be fitted to machinery without dismantling.

Alignment Issues: While link belting can tolerate a certain amount of misalignment, significant misalignment can lead to increased wear, reduced efficiency, and potential failure. It is generally best practice to try to align pulleys as closely as possible to ensure optimal performance.

Cheers
Max.

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Most of the manufacturers who used horizontal shaft motors back then cranked the motor on an angle to help the belts

Joined: Sep 2015
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Yes they are only a slasher mower that would mostly run at 2500 rpm .

A few things to consider though.

Belt Tracking: Even though the belt may transition from vertical to horizontal, proper alignment is necessary to ensure that the belt tracks correctly on the pulleys. Misalignment can lead to increased wear on the belt, potential slippage, and can cause the belt to derail.

Load and Tension: The load on the belt and the tension applied can also play a role. A misaligned belt may place uneven stress on the pulleys, which can lead to premature wear or even failure of the belt or associated components.

Type of Bearings: The type and quality of the bearings supporting the pulleys can affect how much misalignment can be tolerated. Proper bearings can help accommodate some misalignment, but it’s still not a substitute for good alignment practices.

Operating Conditions: The application and environment in which the V-belt operates will also influence how critical alignment is. For example, a heavy-duty application might require higher alignment precision compared to a light-duty application.

Belt Type: Some belt types are more tolerant of minor misalignments than others. V-belts are generally more sensitive to misalignment than some other belt types.

Cheers
Max.

Joined: Jan 2017
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Senior Contributor
Thanks Norm, I might be better off sticking to the A33 because even when I had it running on the very wide angle with the G400 engine they lasted for years.

Thanks for the extra info Max. I guess what I was suggesting is that the original engineering had the motor crankshaft on about an 8 degree angle to the big wheel pulley, so I guess I should trust the "tried and true" and keep the new engine aligned in the same way.

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All I can think of Vm and Norm on the 8 degree angle is by angling the engine slightly it could help mitigate vibrations. An engine that is perfectly aligned may sometimes introduce vibrations into the frame. By setting the crankshaft at an angle, the vibrations can be directed away from sensitive components or the operator.

Cheers
Max.

Joined: Jan 2017
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Senior Contributor
My feeling is it was a compensation for the fact that the same pulley also drives the blade disc off a twist belt. A neighbour tells me he can recall when all quarter twist drives on bore heads always had the engines mounted on a slight angle.

I've looked into link belts and this newer type seems to be the most commonly available today. This is a great video which shows how much vibration is reduced on a bench saw by using these belts. But I wonder if this belt would spin free once the lever is moved to disengaged position? Or if it would just fly off?


Joined: Jan 2016
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SENIOR TECHNICIAN
Hi Vint_mow, you want to try changing the drive belt on a G model Deutscher. To replace the belt you have to remove the pulley on the gearbox. Only problem is you also have to remove the wheel and that just took me 2 and a half days and several people giving it a go with the 10 ton puller. This is why some machines go to the scrap. Maybe the belt you listed might help but there is no adjustment on this belt so you would have to pack the motor up with spacers

Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 702
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Senior Contributor
Some machines are just over-engineered Norm. The great thing about the old Rover HD is that it was not big on safety. It was just a "no frills" machine made to do a job. Everything is bolted straight on the outside of the frame and relatively easy to get at and replace. As time went by of course they had to add more and more safety guards, but after having to remove these guards a few times to replace a thrown belt, most operators just left them off.

I remember buying a very badly engineered Stiga ride on mower some years ago. Everything about that machine was difficult, and it had so many safety features there was often not enough power getting through to allow the machine to start. I was never so glad as the day I watched the back end of that machine leaving on the back of a trailer to be someone else's problem.

Incidentally I had a 1958 Morris Major years ago and changing the oil filter was a major task. You had to jack up the engine in order to change it!


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