I require some old Victa coils that are still testing around 7-10?
I am surprised that someone is not re-making them, considering the current interest in the old Victas. I contacted one ebay seller who had some old ones that he tests but I found him so off-putting in his replies that I refused to buy anything off him. He had the attitude that he could not care less if people bought his coils or not which made me wonder if he could be bothered going to the post office to post them.
There is supposed to be one modern aftermarket coil that will work (Leading 5505). I ordered one recently from a mower parts company and it arrived in a sealed plastic packet and box, but believe it or not it was D.O.D. (="Dead on Arrival"). I couldn't work out what was wrong when I put it in and got no spark at all. So I tested it with the multimeter and got a constant reading of 1 kOhms through the lead and the positive wire. Dead! Someone in China or India must have missed a spot of solder! Have complained to the company I bought it from so hopefully can return it for a replacement or refund.
Does anybody have any old coils that are still testing at least 7 or more, or does anyone know of aftermarket coils that will work with the new electronic ignition modules?
If someone doesn't start re-making coils for these old Victas, there will be a lot of dead Victa 2 strokes sitting around sheds in future. I keep coming across perfectly good Victas with dead or poor spark due to failing or faulty coils.
Hi vint_mow, As I said once before I'm fairly sure you can fit a PT coil, the plug wire would need extending but that is easy. I had a good look at it but didn't get around to proving that it would work, but I think it should. PT coils are a dime a dozen
I see the Powertorque coils come with the ignition module as a single unit. It would be pretty neat if this will work on the early Victas. Be interested to hear from other members if anyone has had success getting these to work on early Victa engines, before I fork out $74 bucks for one.
I have heaps of PT coils here if I get time I might see if one works but I don't really want to pull the fanwheel of a running motor just for the hell of it
I see the Powertorque coils come with the ignition module as a single unit. It would be pretty neat if this will work on the early Victas. Be interested to hear from other members if anyone has had success getting these to work on early Victa engines, before I fork out $74 bucks for one.
Only the Powertorque with the Chinese engine casting with less cooling fins has the integrated ignition module. The older Aussie made Powertorque engine has a separate module. How do you test the ohms (resistance) of a coil again? Where in the multimeter do you plug the red and black wire? There's three ports in mine.
Ahh, if only victa had kept producing the thumblatch catcher series, they would be in better shape today!
Set your multimeter to 20K. Place black terminal on spark plug lead end. Place red terminal on the positive lead from the coil. A good coil will be around 8-10 kohms for Victa, less for Briggs and Stratton, and I recall some really old coils were only 5-6 when new.
You can also test the connectivity. Turn dial to connectivity (usually red on most multimeters). Through positive wire and earth you should hear the beep from the multimeter. There should be no connectivity between the plug lead wire and the earth or positive wire on the coil, so no beep.
I am interested to know how low in kohms a coil can be and still work. I have a coil here that is testing only 5.94. I suspect it will be too low, but I do get spark on turning the flywheel, so worth a try.
Funny thing about coils, they will test a bit higher in warm compared to cold state. Place one in the sun for a while and it can test up to 1 KOhm or more higher than if it is cold. They can also test a bit higher after an engine has been running, possibly due to the warming effect, or simply due to gaining charge through the magneto system. Even without asking Morgan Freeman on Through the Wormhole for the answer, I am sure there is a simple reason for this, but it's just something I've noticed. I remember an old timer telling me that if you get an engine that is a bit hard to start, stand it out in the sun for a while on a hot day and often it will then start. Metal expands when hot, oil thins, vapours rise and expand more, any moisture present will evaporate etc. :-)
BTW, I've been told by a reliable source that Powertorque coils with built-in electronic ignition module will not work on early Victa. You have to get just a plain coil that is the same fit. Then you can add an aftermarket EI module, such as Stens, and this will work! I am not sure why the PT coils with built-in module won't work, but that is what I have been told.
Having said that, I was once misinformed by a technician that a modern Briggs coil with built in E.I. will not work on early Briggs motors. Well I installed one on a very old Briggs and guess what? It worked! So we can't always believe what we are told. Sometimes people have tried and fitted something incorrectly or not made a good earth connection, or have simply purchased a faulty module. They will tell you that something won't work when it will. Only way is for a larger number of people to try so a consensus of knowledge on these things can be established.
Sorry vint_mow, I would love to try it to prove it one way or the other but I just don't have time at the moment. I would like to disprove the PT with built in module story
Just a word of warning if purchasing from AMS do your homework first especially with hard to get parts. I have just waited 3 months for a couple of pinion gears which they said were in stock with a 3 day dispatch. After 5 updates for extended deliveries I rang their supplier and was informed parts NLA and that they had no orders for those parts. I have now after showing them that the parts are NLA they changed their listing to discontinued, and I have received a refund but wasted 3 months.
I haven't checked but I guess a coil off a sidepull would work, unless anybody can tell me that as the early Victas had the coil on the inside of the fanwheel and the sidepull and PT have the coil on the outside of the fanwheel. I don't really want to pull the fanwheel off a running F/C just to test this coil idea but I might have to. Much and all as I hate Aus Post with a passion I could post you a new early F/C coil, but I hate Aus Post charges with a passion.
Well the sad news is that the aftermarket coil did not work. It fits perfectly and looks pretty much the same as the old one, but it will not work. I got a strange result with the spark lead firing sporadically, then not at all for some time, then firing again. It was all over the place. Weak spark one turn, strong spark next couple of turns, then nothing. Coil I tried is supposed to suit MA05183A, MA05529.
So I put the old coil back and now it sparks strong and consistently. Old coil tests at 6.3. The problem is probably as a member told me on another thread, it has something to do with the way the coil is wired, as well as the thickness of the wire and number of winds etc.
With the old coil testing at just 6.3, I can still get a very good spark with electronic ignition.
I'm sure I've heard of people using a side pull Victa coil with the earlier Victa where the coil is inside the flywheel instead of outside the flywheel and they just put the coil on backwards onto the laminated steel core.
Max, I will give your suggestion a try if ever I come across an external coil.
Looking at the new aftermarket coil, I can see it is made a bit different. I wonder if I should have reversed the coil on the steel core? Would doing that have made any difference? I suspect not, but I guess it can't hurt to try. It is really odd the way it produces a spark sometimes but not all of the time.
Be great to have enough coils to do some trial and error testing to sort out which ones will work and which will not.
BTW, I contacted several coil rewiring companies and one manufacturer in Australia about the possibility of rewiring old Victa coils or even re-making them. The replies ranged from "not able to do" to "not worth our bother". I am surprised one of the mower parts companies has not started manufacturing replicas in Taiwan.
Problem is vint-mow, there is only 20 of us playing with this stuff. As I'm grounded at the moment and can't get about I will pull a motor out from the back and see if I can get a PT coil to work. I don't need to put it all together I can spin it on the bench with the drill and see if I get spark. This shouldn't take me too long to try. Max, are you saying that if I use a PT coil, from running on the outside of the flywheel I should turn it over to run it on the inside of the F/C flywheel?
Just to confirm, you can't use a PT coil because the curve on the face is the wrong way and the coil is too thick. The sidepull coil looks like it would work ok as it is the same size as the cup starters but they are also like hens teeth. To fit a PT the points plate would need altering to allow the coil to sit further back but it is a lot of work and still may not work
Just a word of warning if purchasing from AMS do your homework first especially with hard to get parts. I have just waited 3 months for a couple of pinion gears which they said were in stock with a 3 day dispatch. After 5 updates for extended deliveries I rang their supplier and was informed parts NLA and that they had no orders for those parts. I have now after showing them that the parts are NLA they changed their listing to discontinued, and I have received a refund but wasted 3 months. mich
AMS deserve a bad review for messing you around Mitch.
Originally Posted by vint_mow
Max, I will give your suggestion a try if ever I come across an external coil. .
Originally Posted by NormK
Max, are you saying that if I use a PT coil, from running on the outside of the flywheel I should turn it over to run it on the inside of the F/C flywheel?
Yes Norm ,you must flip the coil over so it goes onto the core the opposite way.
The reason for this is, Magnetic field lines are continuous, forming closed loops without beginning or end. They go from the north pole to the south pole.
The early Victa motors ( with the coil inside the flywheel ) the flywheel leads with the North Pole magnet but the Powertorque and Full crank side pull both lead with the South Pole magnet so the Magnetic field lines are reversed if you swap one coil from one motor to the other without installing the coil backwards.
Below I have drawn a Full crank side pull coil even though it looks like a powertorque under the drawings.
The next drawing is comparing the Powertorque to the early Victa.
I have one Victa 18 that has a big hole (in the alloy coil plate) where the coil goes so you can install a bigger coil, so yes you can adapt a bigger coil to work.
It is all a moot point now Max because the PT coil is too thick and the edges are square compared to the domed early coils. This puts the whole idea in the bin
I would have to say that in my experience AMS are not the most "customer friendly". I purchased a part from them and wondered why it had not arrived. I later logged back in and found out my order had been cancelled soon after I had placed it. It took them 3 weeks to get around to sending me an email to say the order had been cancelled. Yet to this day they still have the same part listed as "available" on their website.
Max, I was having trouble understanding the whole polarity thing, but your photos really help to explain the difference between those external and internal coils. Thanks for posting the information. I recently added some extra rare earth magnets in behind an old Pope flywheel which boosted it back to normal. Took me a while to work out the whole N/S thing, and to get the magnets so they were all facing the right direction and not repelling. I must have it right as I used a compass and the needle rotates N to S as I pass it across the face of the magnets, just as I would expect.
It is all a moot point now Max because the PT coil is too thick and the edges are square compared to the domed early coils. This puts the whole idea in the bin
Thanks for testing these coils and for the information, Norm. I have contacted numerous auto electricians and coil companies about the possibility of rewiring old Victa coils and only one was interested. One company says on their website that they can rewire coils and make custom coils, but after contacting them I got this in reply: "Sorry, we do not have this coil." Well of course not. Their answer had nothing to do with the question I asked. There are lots of big glossy websites out there making huge statements, but you contact them and they can't actually do any of the things that they claim they can do. I find this all the time. Our nearest city once had a company that had a great reputation for their ability to quickly and cheaply rewire coils of any kind. I contacted that same company recently and the person on the phone asked what I meant by "rewire a coil?". It was very clear he had never heard of such a thing. I guess this is just a sign of our throwaway mentality, which may in fact be rapidly coming to an end as a result of scarcity of resources and unstable supplies of stock parts. People may once again resort to repairing things rather than simply throwing them to the bin and buying a new one. I live in hope.
Yes Norm ,you must flip the coil over so it goes onto the core the opposite way.
The reason for this is, Magnetic field lines are continuous, forming closed loops without beginning or end. They go from the north pole to the south pole.
Cheers Max.
Max, It has suddenly dawned on me that the aftermarket coil I purchased is just as you describe. I think that is why it is labelled as suiting both external and internal setups, that being MA05183 and MA05529. The problem was this information about flipping the coil for the different setups has not been relayed to the companies that are selling the coils. I emailed one seller and it was obvious to me that he was not certain but said he thought it should in theory work. I even emailed the company responsible for introducing these Taiwanese coils to the Australian market and they failed to reply with any information. It is obvious to me now, based on what you have told us, that I will have to flip the coil the opposite way on the core to get it to work on my older internal setup. I will test this today and let everyone know if successful. I have a feeling that this is what the problem is. Kicking myself for not thinking of this sooner!
vint-mow, I even ground the edges off the coil to see if I could get enough clearance (not sure if it damaged the coil but that doesn't matter as I have buckets of them) Problem is the PT coil is about 28mm thick and the F/C one is about 21mm so I am looking at a 7mm problem. Not sure what would happen if I ground the leg to allow the coil to sit back further
vint-mow, I even ground the edges off the coil to see if I could get enough clearance (not sure if it damaged the coil but that doesn't matter as I have buckets of them) Problem is the PT coil is about 28mm thick and the F/C one is about 21mm so I am looking at a 7mm problem. Not sure what would happen if I ground the leg to allow the coil to sit back further
Sounds like more trouble than it is worth Norm. I am about to try Max's suggestion of reversing the aftermarket coil on the core. I am now convinced that this is the problem. They have made these coils to suit both internal and external flywheel setups, so for older coils you have to flip them.
A word of warning on these new aftermarket coils. The wiring is VERY fine compared to the originals and they have no large blobs of solder anymore to support the wires. I completely severed the connection between the coil and the spark plug lead screw on my coil by applying too much pressure when screwing in the lead wire. I've never seen or heard of this happening on the old coils. I had to grind down the plastic on top of the screw and rejoin it to the wire with a blob of solder. So you obviously have to be very careful not to screw the lead wire in too tight on these new aftermarket coils. Also the positive and earth wires coming from the coil are very fine and not soldered, so if you bend them back and forth a few times they will break off level with the coil. The very first thing I do on receiving these new coils is get the hot glue gun and add some big supporting blobs of hot glue around the connection points on the coil. It is not hot enough to damage the wiring. This will stop the wires from breaking off and totally ruining your day. I would think that just the vibration of the mower over time will cause many of these new coils to fail. But that seems to be the modern trend with mass production.
Well reversing the coil did the trick. The only problem is the lead wire is poking out the top and on the opposite side, so you will need an extra long spark plug lead and find a way to prevent it getting caught up on the shaft and flywheel.
I have converted a Victa points mower to pointless ignition (coil from a side pull full crank) Today just to show how easily it can be done.
This hasn't been explained before doing the conversion this way ,but is simple enough.
Originally Posted by vint_mow
Well reversing the coil did the trick. The only problem is the lead wire is poking out the top and on the opposite side, so you will need an extra long spark plug lead and find a way to prevent it getting caught up on the shaft and flywheel.
Vm ,that is why the lead wire for the spark plug goes to the bottom of the coil if possible with your coil.
Just out of interest vint_mower is the Stens Module wired for negative or positive earth ?, now it's working.
The edges of the coil needs some filing so the flywheel doesn't rub after reversing the coil.
I have installed a Powertorque module instead of the full crank module.
As far as I know if you don't reverse the coil and use a Victa module the motor has to spin a lot faster than normal to get a spark.
Also leaving the points in and connecting up a Victa module with the coil not turned around (standard points coil) will work but uses the old points as a switching mechanism.
From what Norm has said about the size of the Powertorque Coil ,I haven't bothered trying that coil.
Video below showing start up with pointless ignition.
Thanks Max, great to see a successful test. That is what I did with the aftermarket coil. Turned it backwards. Seems really odd placing it this way and looks entirely wrong, but the results speak for themselves. I just left the STENS on Negative Earth. How about you, did you wire it to neg or pos? When I spoke to an auto-electrician a while back he said it won't matter which way I wire it.
Just a question, have you actually turned the coil right around, or just on its side, or doesn't it matter? It's just that I notice the brass keeper is not matching with the slot on the coil in your photo.
