OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums General Discussion Forum Events - Past & Present VICTA - Final 2-Stroke Models Announced

Hello Members

Victa have announced the end of the 2-stroke will occur this year.
They announced this on December 7, 2016.

wow !!!

Nearly $600 for a 2 stroker, don't think that will be overly successful.

Honestly most new mower purchasers have long opted for a 4 stroke machine all day long as there's no more messy fuel mixing and smoke choking situations along with noisy sound output, thus why the demise of this format in the first instance.

Basically they are no longer seen as environmentally friendly when machines are going back to either 4 cycle engines or electrically powered units which are so much quieter on a Sunday morning.

Cheers,
BB.

What are people going to do on slopes? Buy a second electric mower just to do them?
A couple of years ago I had heard (OBVIOUSLY FALSE)rumours that Victa had halted production of two strokes and when I asked a mower shop employee if it was true, he said not as far as he knew and brought up the point of 2 strokes being useful for the many sloped conditions which Australia has.

Can anyone also verify what a friend told me that he's heard that soon after Briggs & Stratton took over (and will probably run into the ground) there were rubbish skips outside Victa's factory, filled to the brim with discarded brand new Powertorques.
It made me sick to the stomach.

Hi Mowerfreak,

That wouldn't surprise me at all, just in my own field of expertise, it was amazing what Rover did to Scott Bonnar by discarding many things to change to their own way of thinking and also the marketing model that they work to.

This always happens with corporate takeovers.

I'm just wondering how blowers and brush cutters work with 4 cycle engines as they require a sump, oil pump etc. and these tools are used at all different angles where the two stroke was so adaptable, but from the general mowing point of view I can't see a 4 stroke not being able to do most things that a two stroke does.

Cheers,
BB.

The other thing is that the battery powered OPE tools such as what Stihl are marketing will work on the angles that a 4 stroker can't.

However, most people around here use a brush cutter/line trimmer on the hilly areas rather than a 2 stroke mower.

G'day Mod BB, MF and LRT

I feel the 4-stroke mower makers are correct in saying their
engines will operate on any 'safe' slope. The safety factor goes
to the safety of the user; not the engine.

It is no surprise cutters/trimmers have won this use application anyway.
4-stroke engines that run clever reservoir/pump designs
can accommodate any angle of operation - just like in aerobatic
aircraft engines, I guess?

Cheers
----------------
Jack

Usually aerobatic engines use a 'dry' sump lubrication system rather than a conventional 'wet' sump design to prevent oil starvation.

They also use fuel injection rather than a carby as the float closes the needle and shuts off the fuel when flying inverted.

That is the risky thing when doing loops with the Tiger Moths, as when you reached the top of the loop the fuel shuts off and sometimes the needle would stick shut. You then had to dive towards the ground to use the extra air speed to turn the engine over to try and re-start it, as they didn't have a starter motor. An interesting experience no doubt!

Is it worth buying a complete mower to store away or just buy a new 2 stroke engine at half the cost?

Briggs bought Victa from GUD Holdings Limited in 2008, so they've been the owners for a while now.

It wouldn't surprise me if the scrapping rate was very high for the early Chinese produced PowerTorque blocks, but that was some years earlier.

LRT, no point in buying a motor to store away, you can rebuild a 2 stroke Victa for a few pennies, so if you really felt the need rebuild a few and you will have plenty of motors stored away to see your days out. Problem is by the time people who really need a 2 stroke will not know they are not available till it is too late. The problem with using a dry sump motor in a small engine is that it requires 2 oil pumps a scavenge pump to pull the oil back from the sump and a feed pump to pump the oil back to the big end, which then drops to the bottom of the sump, splashed over the bore and bearings and then picked up by the scavenge pump to go the cycle again. Far too complex for a mower or whipper snipper. I know a few are claiming 4 stroke whipper snippers but as AVB said recently they are seeing them now coming into the shop, suffering oil starvation resulting in terminal damage

Evening all,

BB raised the subject of emission standards earlier. Where are we at in this country with regards this in relation to powered outdoor products?

Cheers,

Yes I thought as much. The people near here who still want Victas usually have side throws rather than a catcher as they're 'turning grass into lawn' and not wanting to empty the catcher every few feet. You're right about people not realising in time. I couldnt find any second hand ones for sale when I last looked. They turn up at the scrap metal places but not only do you have to have the spare time, you have to be really quick before someone takes it.

LRT, I'm doing my best to salvage as many 2 strokes as I can and I am slowly convincing people the advantages of a tough 2 stroke over the 4 stroke. I have sold quite a number of them and often get people ring back saying the can't believe the way a 2 stroke will rip into long grass.

I have seen the green mower already on sale at Stanfords was tempted but didn't buy it.

The current state of play is here: http://www.environment.gov.au/protection/air-quality/national-clean-air-agreement

From the Nov 2016 Mid-term Report linked there, the emission standards are under development, after which Commonwealth legislation will be drawn up to enable enforcement of these.

Current timeline is for this process to be complete in 2018:

Yes it looks great. Very tempting.

If I were buying some I'd get one each of these rather than a catcher type.

MSV562 Mulchmaster 560 ($1,299.00 RRP)


MSP602 Mastercut 600 ($1,655.00 RRP)

Why are they worth so much?
Do local councils still buy these? I recall council workers starting a utility up back in 88 and the powerful sound it made along with the whirr of the blades was phenominal!
Geez I have a lot of stand out Victa memories from the 1988/89 period!

I don't know. The Ballarat council still use Deutscher walk behinds I think. The Deutscher HE660 is $4,500 RRP!

I'll have to say that wood heaters are far more pollution orientated than any two stroke motor and from what I'm reading this is all about new machinery and not retro-ing legislation back to existing stuff out there.

I guess they feel that natural attrition will get rid of all the older gear over time as we are seeing plenty of Victa's hitting the scrap yards with their flimsy rusted out chassis's.

Honestly it's the stinkin' wood heaters that piss me off at night when the stench just hangs around and you can't leave clothes out on the line overnight.

Wow someone still using a Deutscher out there. I thought all Councils had done away with them and gone to ride ons which are far easier on the body and also allow for some circle work fun.

I must admit as Norm suggested it's true how a two strokers will power on through tough going stuff opposed to 4 strokes that just stall and toss in the towel.

Cheers,
BB.

No its not mine! Thats a picture is taken off their website.

Although I do have a 1970's FH model with a broken gearbox shaft that I plan to rebuild when I get the time.

Here's an FH model I re-powered early last year for a customer.



I do have a better picture of it with the belt cover on but I can't find it at the moment.

G'day all

I guess some collectors will consider a final purchase of a Victa 2-stroke model.
The Brunswick Green in the Aussie Range will probably be popular.

I also guess some collectors will buy a cartoned machine, and keep it that way.

Whatever the case, the Victa 2-stroke is about to meet its maker -
it will be, shortly, no more on the great Australian landscape.

------------------------
Jack

A few weeks ago I convinced a mate who mows back yards that are big and get fairly long, to chase up an old Victa 24 with a full crank motor and pre plastic carb. He whinged about paying nearly $300 for one but now it is his mower of choice. He wanted to know why they were still so expensive, my answer was "because they work and do the job you ask them to do and people know that"

Why have I rarely, if ever, seen 2 strokes in a mower man's trailer or ute?
One time a four stroke mower freak that mowed part time claimed four strokes have more torque when I said Victas had plenty of torque.
My mate who only uses four strokes, used a neighbour's recent build Victa 2 stroke to do his lawn and was impressed by it's performance and commented that the governor worked well as the engine revs never lowered as it chewed through the tough patches of grass. ( only about 10cm tall in this case).

And the really smart people will hang onto the boxes the new mowers come in, because we all know what sort of money the old toe cutter boxes sell for these days

Mowerfreak, I think one of the reasons you don't see 2 strokes in mower mens trailers is because as I explained to my mate, they run around mowing lawns on a regular basis, so the lawns never get long and that is what the 4 stroke likes, mowing lawns. My mate has 2 Honda self propelled but he breaks the gearboxes in them because he expects them to buldoze through long grass. The motors are plenty strong enough, far stronger than the gearbox can handle but they are designed for mowing lawns, not jungle

Morning all,

Thanks for the link Gadge. I get the distinct impression we are going to have a rubber stamp of the U.S. EPA standards in this country. 2018 is not far away.

Perhaps the decision to axe the 2 stroke has less to do with scotching the old Aussie competitor and more to do with dropping sales and the impending emissions standards. Let's face it, if the wanted to do away with it because it was a competitor they have had since 2008 to do it. Almost nine years.

Reality is that sales figures for them are dropping. And that'll have a lot to do with the cost per unit of the new range. The volume isn't there. And with emission standards coming....

Just a theory.

Cheers,

G'day all.
prd, I feel that your view is closer to the truth - vis-a-vis the link Glo Mod Gadge gave us.
I think AUS will rubber stamp it, as you say...

Yes, I think so too. Remember that B&S radically changed its structure
in the 1980s - to become a maker of end products in its own right. I
mean, Honda showed that an OEM engine maker could still do so comfortably,
and also be an equipment makers as well.

The old view, that if an engine maker began to make end products (like mowers)
then this would significantly undermine sales of their engines to competitor
end product makers has proved unfounded.

The second point I feel is worth making is that Victa 2-strokes have not sold
in Europe for a long time, and never found any market in the USA. For Briggs
to continue with the Victa 2-stroke (not a world-class engine) makes no sense
to me. Having said that, it could also be argued that the EPA standards were
a convenient excuse to end 2-stroke production...

Yes, but with some equivocation. It is true that markets accepting the 2-stroke
have greatly reduced - with them being sold here and in NZ. But, Briggs
clear promotion of its own 4-strokes was pretty clear; with the
vast majority of models being 4-stroke models. In other words, Briggs,
itself, has contributed to the decline of popularity of the 2-stroke.

I do believe that it is on record that Briggs could have developed the
2-stroke to comply with the new EPA standards, but it decided it was not
cost-effective (however that may be interpreted).

For the record, it could be argued that Victa ceased being 'Australian'
when it joined the giant ([American] Sunbeam Corporation in 1970.
Under new ownership, Victa produced some of the best rotaries ever
made (and so un-American), and I mean here the famous VCs. But at
this time, Victa also (in pro-American fashion) adopted a global
approach, importing and locally assembling imported designs and machines,
as well as local manufacture of the main product lines.

Victa wanted to be not just a mower maker but a garden products
company; as importer, exporter and local manufacturer. It was
a grand design! But by becoming so, Victa opened up and presented
itself to the world ... and potential takeover.

Interesting discussion so far...
Thanks to all contributors for spicing-up the forums.
I feel it is warranted here; because the demise of the 2-stroke is,
arguably, the single most unique feature Victa had in its history, from
and including the Model 1.

All that remain after this year will be the memories and ...
just another brand name ... 'Victa' [just like 'Scott Bonnar'].

All very interesting.
-----------------------------
Jack

Morning Jack,

All very valid points well made.

Completely agree that emission standards may be a 'convenient' out but I can't help wondering what came first, the chicken or the egg? Did they make the decision not to upgrade to EPA standards for the U.S. and European markets because the market was already declining or the decision not to upgrade the reason for the decline (complete closure) of these markets?

And to what extent is/ was there tariff protection working against the import of the Australian made engine into the U.S.? I really have no idea what the answer is on that one. I'm just kicking the can around.

Ultimately a sale of a 2st engine is a profit for B&S just as much as the sale of a 4st.

Consumers are funny cattle. Price aside, the decision to buy 4st for most of them will, I suggest, be based on the 'hassle' of mixing fuel (despite the fact that most of them will have mixed fuel for the weed eater anyway(!) as was previously mentioned) and the perception of hard starting. Consumer prejudice is a tough battle but it can be changed with strong clever marketing, time, and the effort of knowledgeable sales people. Of course the parent company needs to be sufficiently committed to the product to bother.

Just kicking the can around.

Cheers,

I think another thing that has put people off the Victa is the silly faults they built into the LM carby, people just got sick of them giving trouble and the next mower they would buy was a 4 stroke

G'day prd
I ask myself that every second Tuesday of every month.
... I still don't know.

That, I feel, is an important point ...
Americans remain protectionists ... and more so in desiring to 'make America
great again.' I am a firm believer in tariff protections. I do not know
what part tariffs played in preventing Victa to enter the USA market.

Perhaps this reflects the complexity of commercial and
political interests. It appears 'true' that 2-strokes can be
made compliant - with sophisticated fuel injection and the like.
I don't know if this is economical for small lawnmower engines.
I'm glad you raised the issue though.


Yes, this explains my behaviour on every second Tuesday of every month!
I guess this is about economies of scale and World markets.


I would think this is as wise a statement as has ever been written
on these great forums, prd. I can't top that one. The history of lawnmowers
has always been about making life (style) easier.

Many thanks for kicking the can around.

All very interesting,
----------------------------
Jack

Cheers Jack.

And of course that's 'price' not 'pride'

.......and yes, my comments are to be read on the assumption that emission standards compliance is cost effective.

mixing two stroke fuel also killed the victa
now days people two lazy or dumb to mix two stroke
we even had one ruined victa two stroke come in the shop after being run on mixture of petrol and sealsol fertiliser as the plastic bottle it comes in is the same as the ones two stroke oil comes in with the 200ml mixing chamber
the silly house wife grabed the wrong bottle and added the sealsol to fuel mix what can I say
I wonder how many victa two strokes have destroyed been destroyed by wrong fuel mix

Think of how many have been destroyed by just putting straight petrol in with NO 2 stroke oil ??? I think I would run out of fingers and toes.

Cheers,
BB.

I accidentally ran one of my Powertorque mowers on straight petrol. I only found out when the mirror seized up mid now.
After replacing the fuel, it started up as normal and has worked fine since.
Might have a few scored though!

Sorry, meant "motor seized mid mow."
And "might have a few scores though."
I'll have to preview posts from now on as this site gives you little chance to edit.

I cant understand why people have trouble mixing 2 stroke petrol. I buy a jerry can of petrol and mix it into 2 five litre cans with the right amount of two stroke oil. It even tells you how much oil to use on the side of the can! Its not that hard!

People still have to mess around with oil with a Briggs because they use oil, but many people don't check it till they stop running and wonder why it stopped

Many people out there are inattentive and aren't conscientious with these things.
Now that two strokes have been in the minority of new Victa mower purchases for a long time, we have collectively lost the once common routine of mixing our own two stroke fuel.
Losing the 25:1 two stroke fuel bowsers hasn't helped.
One such pump at an independent petrol station in Sydney's south has had an out of use sign for many months.

Those were the days !!!

A "BP ZOOM" Pump at each BP site. Gee didn't Victa invest lots of money in their association with that petroleum giant.

Cheers,
BB.

Our servo when I was a kid just had two drums of BP Zoom and you filled it yourself. Operator was a nice bloke.

Yep, a lot of smaller/country servos just had the 44 gallon Zoom tap drum on a stand. Mower shops mostly had this setup, too. I'll quote from a past post of mine to describe this here.

Zoom 25 was usually mixed from concentrate, at the point/time of delivery from BP, in mower shops.

It may be of historical interest to describe how this worked, so here goes.
Our shop kept a 44 gallon tap drum of BP Zoom 25, on a wheeled stand. We also had a 12 gallon drum of Zoom Concentrate on hand. When the 44 was getting low, we would use a BP-supplied aluminium dipstick to measure the remaining contents, and calculate the required top-up volume [IIRC the volumes of Concentrate and petrol were read directly from the dipstick markings]. Then it was a matter of phoning the local BP distributor, to place the order.

When the fuel tanker arrived, we would pour the appropriate volume of Zoom Concentrate into the 44, then wheel it outdoors. The tanker driver would set his discharge meter to deliver the corresponding quantity of Standard grade petrol, and pump this into the 44.

After 40+ years, I can't recall the exact mix ratio used; but it was NOT 1:25, rather it was a lesser proportion of petrol. That is, the Zoom Concentrate was pre-diluted to some extent. I'd say this was to ensure that pumping the petrol in on top of the concentrate, provided sufficient agitation to achieve thorough mixing.