OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Collectors Corner Identification of Particular Machines Ransomes Minor Mark 4 Reel Mower

This thread is a continuation of the post in the Photo Gallery which is found HERE

Hi andyandeva, and a warm welcome to the forum. Its great to have you aboard as we all like to learn new things and tinker here.

I believe that what you have there is a Ransomes, Sims and Jefferies Ltd. 14" Minor Mk 4 with a Villiers engine.
It appears to be the same model as this one:

Thanks Deejay. I've had a scout about online using that detail. Everything seems to point toward 40's-50's for the build year. Would this be accurate?
I was wondering if I could take advantage of you knowledge and experience and ask a few more questions.

1-Could I be mistaken in thinking these are fairly rare? I ask this because there seems to be so little information out there. I couldn't even find others for sale. youtube only had one short video with no description. The old mower club had limited information. Is this the case or are there none left because they were not a well made or as popular as other marques such as Scott bonnar, atco, greens etc?

2-would dismantling the painted one again and going for a full resto hurt the desirability/collectibility of these mowers? I was only able to find modern fuel and throttle lines and I am afraid that using modern parts on an old mower like this might be seen as "cheating" by purists.
My origional idea was to do keep one in completely "as is, as was" condition and for other, carry out a sympathetic light resto to preserve more than restore.

And lastly, I had been looking at the possibility of swapping or selling these to fund my next mower project. I really enjoyed taking these two non running (one with a frozen piston and bent crank shaft) and bringing them back to life. What would be the next step be if I decided to sell or swap these? can you recommend a particular machine or style of machine that has the same pioneering (for want of a better word) engineering and design.
Many thanks in advance. Andrew.

Hi again, andyandeva, as you can see this thread has moved to a new home here, as the Photo Gallery is just for photos, not detailed discussion; I hope you understand.

In the description area of the gallery thread you posted:

I will try to give you some answers to your questions....

(1) Ransomes Sims and Jefferies cylinder mowers were (to my knowledge) imported from England and as such would be fairly rare here in Australia.
Ransomes Sims and Jefferies were the first company to take up the 'Budding Patent and produce the first cylinder mower.
Before the invention of the rotary motor mower (Victa et al) in the early 1950's cylinder motor mowers were the fashion for the middle to upper classes, the hand push cylinder mower was very popular.
Ransomes would have had stiff competition from other imports such as ATCO, Qualcast and locally Scott Bonnar and others.
They were a sturdy little machine and well designed and manufactured.
Unfortunately, I don't know a lot about the Ransomes Minor....but there may be some members here that do and will chime in with a reply.
I will try and answer your further questions later.

Noted..That's why you the boss. I'm still getting around using this app on the iPad. Getting easier each visit.
Yep, if you or anyone else can dig up any info I'd be very happy. I have pretty much made my mind up to fully restore one back to show room.
I have many pics of the parts serial numbers etc for the ransomes mower and the Villiers mk2 2 stroke motor. I might put some up when I suss out the site and posting etiquette.

No Andrew, I'm not the boss, just one of the moderation team here at ODK.
All I have done is shifted your post to the most appropriate area, which is 'Identification of Particular Machines'. This gives your post the best chance of being viewed by our members and hopefully a helpful reply.

In answer to your second question:
This is usually a hard one to answer; to restore or conserve...but for you there is an easy solution...as you have 2 machines, as you have said, fully restore one to showroom and the other conserve in a sympathetic way, keeping it as original as is possible.

In answer to your third question:
Owning 2 Ransomes and having one in showroom and the other in its 'working clothes' and cutting your lawn is the best possible outcome.
I cannot advise you on swapping or selling...it all depends what you are chasing in engineering or design..Ransomes tick all those boxes and have a long, long history...You are lucky to have 2 examples.

We would like you to post more pics here in this thread, instructions for posting pics using our forum Inline Uploader can be found HERE

You are learning to navigate around the site, as far as forum etiquette is concerned, common sense is the keyword, and you are doing just fine, mate.

Thanks deejay.
I'll have a go at throwing some pics up over the next week or so.
My mistake about the boss remark. In my line of work when you enter another persons shop area, he or she is the "boss" of that area. Just a friendly term of respect. I'll remember for next time.
All the best mate, chat later.

Hi Andrew, all cool mate, and I am looking forward to seeing the next lot of pics.
All the best to you mate,

Hey Andrew and Deejay

Im glad i found someone else who has a Ransomes! I too thought i had the only one in existence!
Mine was sold to me as an ATCO of which i have 3 but i could never identify it.

Thanks too Deejay for identifying it as a MK4!

Does anyone know what model plate was used and its location? And the usual question of a grass catcher?

Cheers!
Marcus

Hi Andrew, Kaisersosei and Deejay,

Deejay is right in claiming this as a Mk 4 Minor.
I can answer your questions - hopefully.

The build year:-
This design pre-dates WWII but most machines were imported (Mk4)post-war.
Post-war imports re-commenced in 1947 and the Mk4 Minor was replaced
by the radically different Mk6 in late1951.

Your machine's build must fall between those dates.
A more accurate build date may be ascertained by interpreting the engine build dates
on the Villiers Midget engine.

Is this machine rare?
No. These machines were popular and sold in their thousands in Australia.
They were a high-end product and recognised as such.
Price wise, they were never in the reach of the working class.
Today, a few appear on auction sites on a regular basis.

Restoration?
That's a spicy question! My personal view is that it is up to you -
but for very specific reasons . . .

I said this is not a rare machine. Preserving the patina is less important
for this model. Fuel and throttle cables are available ex UK - that is,
braided fuel line and flexible cabling. Engine parts are,generally, not a problem.
For the machine: bottom blades, bearings, chains, etc. are available.

Selling or Swapping?
My personal view is in total agreement with Deejay.You mentioned 'pioneering design'.
Ransomes do hold a special place in vintage mower history - for obvious reasons.

The Minors (mk 1 thru 5) represent the 'classic school' of design.
Your machines were the last produced by Ransomes before their revolutionary bombshell -
the Minor Mk 6, with its low silhouette and modern chassis.
In Australia, the earlier marks symbolise post war prosperity and
the growing middle classes. They were beautifully engineered to last.

The model plate and catcher ?(question from Kaisersosei)
The model plate was located on the engine chain cover.
The catcher was of the classic design: wood and metal.

See images below:



If you need help:-
Reproduction Operator's Instructions are available.
Scanned parts lists are available.

Cheers
Jack

Thank you so much Jack!

That is brilliant, great to get some history.

I was obviously looking too hard but the plate was in front of me the whole time but now it changes things.... I think....

I gave the plate a bit if a clean and it appears it is a 12" Minor MK 1 not MK 4....
Now i really cant find any info!

It looks almost identical to the MK4..

Is it the same but earlier? If so how early?

Thanks again for your help!

Cheers

Marcus

Hi Marcus and ODK members,

That is significant!
I would like to say with authority what the difference between
the marks were. Alas, I cannot. There were minor changes (pardon the pun)
in the Mk1 thru Mk 5 range.

I do know that the Mk 1 should be pre-war:- an (attributed) 1939 catalogue does show this.
I just can't, as yet, find evidence of their pre-war importation to Australia.
It does make your machine significant to Australian vintage mower history.

I'll let you know as information comes to light.

Cheers,

Jack

Thanks Jack,

Wow! That was a bit unexpected, ill have to be a bit more thoughtful in what i do with it...

I bought it off of a mates dad in Mount Gambier who had it at a shack for the lawns there, he thought it was an ATCO and so did i as i have 2 x 1950's ATCO's and what appears to be an 40's maybe 30's ATCO that im chatting to Sir_Chook about (happy to post conversation for all ODK members as that too is an interesting one) pics of mower and badge number attached if anyone has any idea or interested...

I appreciate the work you put in regarding the MK1, ill get it out of my shed and take some pics to share in the next day or so...

Mystery ATCO and the mystery Badge




Cheers

Marcus

Hi Marcus,

Yes, I was not aware the MK1s came to these shores.

I'm not the expert on Atco.
Sir Chook is the best Australian authority on these wonderful machines.

The typical Atco 'dogtag' suggests this is of '40s vintage.


I look forward to some pics on the Ransomes.
If possible, the stamped info. on the flywheel (behind the cover plate)
may give a close (approximate) production date.

Cheers Marcus, and thanks for sharing on the ODK forums.

Jack

Thanks Jack,

Not a problem, please find the pictures attached... The flywheel data was strange... Ends with a 9...

The front rollers are missing but i think the guy i bought it off of still has them (or so he thinks...)

Cheers

Hi Marcus and ODK members,

Thanks for the photos of the Mk 1.

The flywheel data does not mean anything to me.
I'm hoping some member might make sense of it . . .

I'm keen to know whether this machine was privately imported,
or sold here. The war years really complicated things.

All very interesting.
----------------------------------
Jack

Hi Jack and ODK members,
Hopefully Mal (Bluegmhtmonaro) may chime in here...From memory he may be able to make some sense of the flywheel numbers.
I would like to see a pic of Marcus's ID Plate, if he wouldn't mind posting.

The information on the Mk1 is very thin on the ground, however I do feel that the changes between the different marks of Minor in the early days must have been subtle.

I did find this video of a 1936 Ransomes running:


For a company that has been manufacturing cylinder mowers since 1832, I find that information from the company really hard to find.

Or are we all being held to ransome?

Thanks Jack,

I have asked the question regarding history so hopefully he has a story!

Deejay, i have removed the carby and given the plate a bit of a polish, to get it off is another issue if i end up doing anything about restoring!

Also looks like an asbestos clutch...

Hi Marcus and ODK members,
Thanks for posting the pics for us mate, just remember to handle that clutch material very carefully if you disassemble the machine...asbestos is very dangerous to your health. I am confident that it could be replaced by cork as an alternative .....Scott Bonnar used cork to great effect.

Thanks mate,

No probs on the Asbestos, i wondered if cork was still an option of am i better off with an asbestos substitute like a softer version of what they use in disk brakes (if it exists!)

Thanks again!

Marcus

Hi again Marcus,
That I could not advise you on, as I don't know of a substitute suitable for use as a clutch lining...most are too soft, and mainly used for heat dissipation.
It won't be a prob, we will think of something!

Hi Darryl, Marcus and ODK members,

I can't help but agree with Deejay about the info. on the early minors.
I'm well versed in the Mk 6s and 7s, but the earlier marks are in want.

I have no doubt that the Mk 4's are the most common.
Marcus' Mk 1 is the first maker's plate I have seen here.

From a historical perspective, my interest lies in the intro. dates,
and the specifics of mark specification changes. Was the Mk. 1 sold here?
When was it introduced?

The bigger picture, of course, is the issue of 'lightweight' mowers.
The Ransomes 'Minor' range, when introduced, were never revolutionary.

They continued a tradition - popularised by Atco - that mowers could be
made more light, cheaper, and available to a wider, emerging Middle-class
market. Ransomes got the message pretty quick, but they were not the
instigators or visionaries here.

With respect to the flywheel data, this remains problematic.
Villiers, to my knowledge, never intended that there be a public,
logical, codified system of engine identification. The numbers
just might be esoteric and factory specific.

With respect to the clutch. I have no information that asbestos was
ever used in these clutches - these were positive engagement types,
and slippage did not generate the heat that asbestos materials could
handle. They were not brakes. Any replacement lining should be no
problem, if a lining is required at all.

Post-war, Ransomes were imported from 1947. I have assumed that these
were Mk4s (from evidence supplied to me). I want to know the historical
lineage of the previous marks.

I agree with Darryl:
"For a company that has been manufacturing cylinder mowers since 1832,
I find that information from the company really hard to find."

All very interesting.

Jack

Hello. I am new here. My neighbour has been given an old Ramsomes Lawnmower. He has no internet nor a computer. He asked me to do some research on the model hence my submission on this topic. Sorry If I have gate crashed. I thought I would append under this 'topic' given the topic seems to be the same type of mower.

The mower he has is:
Ransomes Sims & Jefferies, Ipswitch
14 in Minor 14in
Mk4 Regd No T5404

Here is a photograph:



I appreciate any comments about this mower. As I understand, there were plenty of this model made and sold in Australia.

Reg

NB I have a SB bought in 1971/2 and is retired in the back shed.

Hello Reg and ODK members,

Welcome to the ODK Forums. This is a nice little MK4 Minor.
These were fully imported (never built in Australia).

This was the first domestic Ransomes to be imported post WWII.
The first records I have date from late 1947 and the last ones to mid 1951.
This machine was replaced with a completely new design in late 1951.

Your machine is missing a couple of bits I see - the chain case cover and flywheel cover.
These are good machines to restore, with serviceable engine parts available.

-------------------------------------------
JACK

Thanks for replying to my post Jack.

Denis (my neighbour) said he is going to talk to his mate who gave him the mower to see if the catcher is still around. He also thinks the chain case cover may be there in the shed.

Much appreciated information

Reg

Hi Jack

The fly wheel cover is attached to the handle. You can just see it in the photograph. The angle of the cover is straight on hence hard to see.

Reg

Hi Reg567999,

Yep, got it.

The catcher will be metal with wooden sides.
Here is what the chain-case cover and catcher look like:-



--------------------------------------
JACK.

Thank you very much Jack.

I will show this to Denis.

Reg

A History Record is now available for the early Ransomes Minors: -[/b]
https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/u...4/ransomes-minor-mk-1-to-mk-5-c1939.html


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