OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Collectors Corner Identification of Particular Machines Red H.G. Palmer 4-stroke identification please

I purchased this little H.G. Palmer 4-stroke recently and wonder if anyone can identify the model for me and provide a possible year of production? (The label says "L4L"). I am guessing the red paint must be original. I'm not sure about the engine type as I haven't actually taken possession of it yet. Looks like a Victa, Villiers, or perhaps Kirby engine?? Wheels look like stock standard Victa wheels from the era. I note that the winder looks original and is identical to the ones on Southern Cross KXD mowers (perhaps made by Kirby?).

A manual would be handy. If anybody can supply one as a PDF or photocopy I would be very grateful.

Hello vint-mow
I feel I can give you a rough year of production.
This utility base was Palmer's first base but they used about
half-a-dozen engines over its life span - from about 1960-64.

The only ads I have that date this model come from 1964.
I'm guessing that 'L4L' stands for Lawnmower-4-stroke-Kirby-Lauson



These images from ODK show the decal and badge:-




Hope this helps.
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Jack

heres a comparison of the victa and hg side by side same engine.
and this shows it when i got it running.

Many thanks for the excellent details Jack and Gizmo. The badge is missing off the front of mine so if anyone can help with an original or repro badge, please let me know.

Is that a logo or coat of arms in white paint on the front of the fuel tank?

Incidentally, I have that same fuel tin!

it is the hg palmer logo. lots missing but you can see the crown theme .

Excellent! Many thanks Gizmo.

G'day vint-mow and Gizmo
This topic has proven quite rewarding - in recording a second HG Kirby 4-stroke
on a HG utility base. I find HG Palmer a most interesting story - of a mass
merchandiser that expanded too quickly. I love Gizmo's images of HG products ...
they put their name on every electrical appliance.

I note that Gizmo's mower has the new Tecumseh recoil.
These would be used extensively on Kirby-Tecumseh and Tecumseh engines.
This conforms with the 1964 advertisement.

Impulse (wind-up) starters would remain the main starter in the 1960s.

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Jack

Jack, this also confirms my earlier suspicions that Southern Cross must have outsourced their winders from Kirby... or did Kirby outsource them from Victa (or vice versa)???? I've never been entirely clear on the manufacturer of those early impulse starters. I have always felt the early kind that released the spring as soon as you pushed down the winding lever was a Kirby design. In any case I guess this is why the older Tecumseh/Clinton recoils (P/N 590420) fit these motors so perfectly! They have the hole to hole spacings on the starters exactly 4" apart.

G'day vint_mow,
The impulse starters were all US designs AFAIK, and if in fact they were produced here, it would have been under licence from Lauson/Tecumseh.

Victa and James N Kirby & Co are the chief suspects, if local component production for OEM users did in fact occur.

As against assembly from imported parts - this copped lower import tariffs than bringing in assembled units, pre ~1973, when the Whitlam Government introduced sweeping tariff reforms.

G'day vint-mow, Gizmo and Gadge
Yes, I feel all wind-up starters were North American designs.
Not all from Tecumseh - Pope, for example, used a Clinton design.

I feel we can rule out Victa here - Victa 4-strokes were Kirbys in this era.
As Gadge said, in remains unknown if there was local manufacture, or assembly
from imported parts. My best guess is local manufacture - because the starter
had wearing (serviceable) components sold in high volume. Who knows?

Yes vint-mow, clear evidence that SC used Kirby starters on SC engines.
After all - Southern Cross were low-volume lawnmower makers.

Gizmo's decal is the only recorded example of how Palmer presented this machine.
HG Palmer seemed to parody the Victa 'V' logo with their own heraldic crest.
I guess this was about class perception - a mower of quality ... and an attack on our
'cultural cringe'. A bit pretentious, perhaps ...

All very interesting.
-------------------------------
Jack

Thanks Gadge and Jack. Yes that all makes perfect sense. I have seen some old Tecumseh impulse starters advertised in America on eBay and they look basically the same.
I agree about the HGP decal and design. The long V with the coat of arms (crown) in the centre also resembles a boomerang, so yes indeed, this may well have been playing on the famous Victa logo.

Interestingly, IIRC Victa used the Kirby part numbers for the impulse starters fitted to their Kirby 4-strokes [for the early type, at any rate], but Victa system xx-xxxx format numbers for those fitted to their 2-stroke models.

Wondering if someone can please tell me the dimensions of the H. G. Palmer badge that goes on the front of these mowers? The only measurement I know for sure is the length between the mounting holes, 'coz that's all mine has got. lol!

I've been in touch with people who do repros of vintage mower badges, but as far as I can tell nobody is reproducing H. G. Palmer badges or decals. The badges are about as rare as hen's teeth. But if anyone has such a hen and does not mind pulling its teeth for me, I would be very grateful.

Hello vint-mow
These badges do come up for auction from time-to-time.

I have added a grid to a badge image.
I think you should be able to calculate dimensions from it ...



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Jack

Thanks Jack,

Gizmo has also sent me some dimensions, so between the two I now have a pretty good idea.

Hi vint-mow
Yes, Gizmo is a National treasure - always willing to help out.
Mine was a back-up plan.

These badges do come to auction, and they show just how HG Palmer
was a major player on the Eastern AUS mainland in the 1950s & 1960s.

They expanded too quickly and gained notoriety in accounting and tax law.
It was a dramatic rise - and fall - of the HG Palmer company.

Cheers
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Jack

Yes, it was one of the biggest corporate crashes in Australia's history up until that time. Something like a 10 million pound loss in 1965.