OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Welcome to Outdoorking Forum HELP Area Site Problems/Suggestions and Updates Re: Image Posting and Rotation Issues

Hello all

That the two images in question here were re-uploaded and the same
thing occurred would indicate the problem does not lie with the ODK
uploader but within the image itself.

It appears that the issue arises on smartphone cameras (Apple and Android)
when the image orientation becomes corrupted. Here are two easy fixes.

[1] In Windows: select Paint, File, Open (your photo image file), click Rotate Left or Rotate Right as appropriate (select "Flip Vertically" to turn the image upside down, or select "Flip Horizontally" to make a mirror image of the photo). Once the orientation is correct, whether or not you changed it, click on File > Save As > JPEG > accept or change the file name and location. This will set the image's default orientation as viewed, regardless of the original camera orientation.
On Mac: open Photos app > select File > Import >select file > Image in menu > Rotate Clockwise (or Counterclockwise) > File > Close or Share. You also can open the file in the Preview app > click Tools > Rotate Left or Right > File > Save.

[2] The image is rotating because you are saving the image in JPEG, if you save your image in PNG then the orientation will not change.

Just try this and re-post in this topic.

Hope this helps.
------------------------
Jack

It worked Jack, I had to edit it so it was upside down, then make it up right and save again.
Thanks Jack!

Hi all,

done a little testing of my own. See my responses below, then my next post will be about what little experiment I performed.


Not necessarily. It only indicates that the issue is repeatable. given the issue only seems to arise on this site but not people's devices this indicates that it is likely (not conclusive) that there may be an issue with the site. This may not be a fault with the site, but actually a feature if the site is set up this way.

Sorry Jack, I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that the image is corrupted. If it was corrupted it wouldn't display properly, if at all and this would be across multiple devices. It is only showing an incorrect orientation on one, this site.



These are good workarounds.

Yes the image is rotating in JPEG likely because of the EXIF metadata, this is how a device determines the correct orientation for viewing vs the orientation of the information. This is device (and program) dependent.

When you edit and resave a JPEG, in my experience the program resets the orientation to the default Top-left (1) from whatever it was before and saves the image as displayed. This then resets the image so that it doesn't need some rotation to display properly, solving the issue. See next post.

Wehn you save as a PNG, the EXIF metadata is stripped when you write a PNG file and so the orientation becomes fixed to the viewed orientation. See next post.

Test of EXIF Orientation Parameter in JPG/JPEG files
Synopsis:A test of EXIF orientation settings in JPG files by changing the orientation parameter only in the same file. Display of orientation is then dependent on the software and/or system used. Uploading to the outdoorking site removed the orientation effect of the EXIF orientation setting, rendering all images identical. Altering and resaving the files reset the orientation parameter to the default Top-Left (1) whilst maintaining the display orientation.

Systems used laptop w/ Win XPPro SP3, XNView 2.12 image viewer. Iphone 3G phone and Panasonic TZ-15 camera. Yes it's all prehistoric, but it works.

Procedure (Gist of it anyway, as it's getting late...early now!)
1) Photo with 'sidewards orientation' (EXIF Orientation "Right-top (6)" ) chosen to test viewing on PC through OS and software and for upload to OutDoorKing (ODK).
2) Photo with 'normal orientation' (EXIF Orientation "Top-left (1)" ) chosen to test altering the orientation parameter. parameter altered and saved using XNView. Images then viewed in O/S, XNView and uploaded to ODK.

Results (abridged, I wanna go to bed)
A) Test of 'sidewards oriented image'

• Image taken with Iphone 3G, downloaded to PC.
• Image orientation listed as right-top (6) so rotated 90 degrees anticlockwise
• Image displays normally in XNView, i.e. as I expected (rotated 90 degrees clockwise from the camera's point-of-view)
• Image displayed rotated 90 degrees anticlockwise in WinXP Explorer (i.e. as 'taken' from the camera's point-of-view)
• Image uploaded to ODK using ODK's image upload window (under Firefox on WinXP PC). Image displayed (when clicked on) rotated 90 degrees anticlockwise (i.e. as 'taken' from the camera's point-of-view) before upload all finalised. Image upload then discontinued.

B) Test of 'normal oriented image' manipulation

• Image taken with Panasonic DMC-TZ15, downloaded to PC.
• Image orientation listed as top-left (1) so camera and human point-of-views align.
• Image then copied another 7 times to renamed files (2-8)
• Each renamed file has the orientation parameter adjusted corresponding to its number (2-8) and saved. Orientations are:

Orientation: Top-left (1)
Should appear normal

Orientation: Top-right (2)
Should appear mirrored horizontally

Orientation: Bottom-right (3)
Should appear rotated 180�

Orientation: Bottom-left (4)
Should appear mirrored vertically

Orientation: Left-top (5)
Should appear rotated 90� anti-clockwise then mirrored vertically

Orientation: Right-top (6)
Should appear rotated 90� clockwise

Orientation: Right-bottom (7)
Should appear rotated 90� clockwise then mirrored vertically

Orientation: Left-bottom (8)
Should appear rotated 90� anticlockwise listed as

• Images displays as expected in XNView, i.e. rotated as listed above
• Images displayed identically in original orientation for all orientations using WinXP explorer
• Images begun to be uploaded to ODK using the ODK upload window, after three appear in identical original orientation upload is discontinued.

C) Test of JPG and PNG file saving

• Resaving a file as a JPG in XNView resets the EXIF orientation parameter to "Top-left (1)" so preserving the current image display orientation.
• JPGs often have a thumbnail attached to the file for quick icon display. the orientation of the thumbnail may not match the picture orientation especially if the EXIF orientation has been manually changed.
• Saving a file as a PNG strips the EXIF information and therefore saves in the displayed orientation.

Conclusions

• The camera and camera-phone used here (which use JPEG files) both save the orientation information of the photo in an EXIF- Orientation parameter in a JPEG file.
• XNView is able to display the image in the correct EXIF orientation, this includes the thumbnail
• Win XP through Explorer is not able to display the images in the correct orientation, this is likely a result of the old OS.
• Upload to ODK through the standard file upload mechanism does not recognise the EXIF orientation information, as a result the orientation is stripped and incorrect unless it has been saved in the default "top-left (1)" orientation.
• File upload was not completed once the files were viewed to save time, space and a mess on your screen!

If you've read this far, you should probably really find something else to do...like fix a mower!

Cheers,

Good morning CyberJack.
I was in the middle of a Post Reply and accidentally closed my Internet page, however, I just found an interesting fact that I never noticed that may explain what is going on.
When the photo is opened on both the iPhone and Desktop, these images show correctly, and saved right-way up to the desktop but, when using File Explorer on the Desktop to open the connected iPhone photo DCIM file, and looking closer at the larger photo tiles, these photos are actually showing upside down.
I can't explain why they look right-way up on both the iPhone and Desktop, and both copy to the Desktop right-way up, yet when viewing through file explorer they are upside down, which may be why they imported to ODK upside down.
Maybe Kye can review his photos using his computer File Explorer, as I have and verify if the rotation of his photo is actually upside-down or not?
Here's another photo of the machine I took that is right-way up, yet upside down when viewed in File Explorer.



Based on the above, I have hunted another photo on my iPhone that shows it upside down in File Explorer, and I have just copied it to my Desktop and both iPhone and Desktop views show them to be the right-way up. This may be the answer we are looking for.



Daryl.

G'day Bushy, Kye & Patrick

Bushy, this is good news and it confirms what I outlined above.
When the device is connected you're seeing the orientation as seen
on your iphone. However, File Explorer (or equivalent) is seeing the
saved image itself (and it is reading the orientation information(?)).

This makes things easier in that you will know in advance what
images will pose an issue on ODK (or other forums that have this problem).
You only need to correct the dodgy image(s) via means I outlined.

I also understand that a basic photo editor on your mobile device itself
could correct this prior to upload to your PC. Perhaps Patrick could assist
there. I haven't understood cameras since my first mobile:-



Summary
So... for me, I upload to PC and check everything uploaded after disconnection
of the mobile device. Any problem issues I correct by the rotate and 'save as' method.

It's annoying, and there are no shortage of sites discussing this
very issue. http://rotatemailer.com/rotate-mailer-in-action.html
or http://iphonephotographyschool.com/iphone-photos-upside-down/

In any case, we now have a better understanding of how the jpeg
format combined with mobile devices can cause some problems with
forum uploaders.

Thanks to all for helping fix this annoying problem with a simple workaround.

Hope this helps.
-------------------------
Jack

Hi Jack,

I've heard of rear view cameras but that (pic in your last post) is ridiculous!

I'll try and keep this short(er)-and-sweet(er).

A bit more testing today of the same rotated images on differing OSes. BAsically copied them to a USB stick and plugged it in for reading with as many different programs I could quickly lay my hands on.

Win7
Copied and viewed the images on a Win7 PC. Won't= won't rotate and/or reflect/flip, will= well, you figure it out!:)

• Explorer/File Explorer won't
• Irfanview will
• Photoshop CC 2014.2.2 will

So Jack is correct that the basic file Explorer won't show the orientation properly. I was surprised that it's still this way on Win7, (don't have a Win10 to test on) unless there's a compelling reason then that's just sloppy and lazy from Microsoft and deserves a ! Don't ususally like Macs but in this case good on Apple for maintaining consistency.

Android (4.4.4 on a Nexus 7 2013)
Now this gets interesting. Android will allow the rotate but not the flip/mirror! You need an app to do anything on Android.

• ES File Explorer Image Browser won't
• Gallery will rotate only
• Photos will rotate only
• Cymera will rotate only
• Total Commander will rotate only
• Ghost commander will rotate only BUT can also give you the EXIF information (from the menu)

In Android, flipped/mirrored items display in the default orientation. Rotated items will be shown rotated, mirrored + rotated tend to show in default orientation.

Note also I downloaded/save one of Kye's upside-down images to my hard disk, but there was no EXIF data. the only info was some basic JPEG data, but it included the following comment:

I'd upload my 8 different orientations as a zip file for others to try but it seems zip files aren't allowed.

Cheers,

Hi Patrick
The uploader removes the metadata from the image when it reduces the size of the image.

My original photo (left thumb) is an internet unfriendly 1.7MB and 3264 x 2448.
The uploader reduces the image to the max allowable - 1280 x 960 (right thumb),
(scaled to 640 x 480) and the file size is a friendly .2 MB.

Note the blue 'Information' logo is missing on the uploaded thumb image.



p.s. My photo editor is the brilliant ThumbsPlus V10.
http://www.cerious.com/

Patrick, I took your comment on board and upgraded to a front-facer.
No longer the laughing stock, this baby has a shutter speed measured in mph!

Jack and I always believed the in car camera was developed for Bathurst

Re: Bike Camera
No need to worry Norm, you're still correct: that's an out-of-car camera, probably a ~~~Ye Olde Go Pro~~~ Alpha-Version 0.001 B.C.E.

Re: Metadata
Jack, I was trying to establish that the removal of the metadata is what is happening with the uploader and that's where the rotation information is disappearing.

Why it takes me three nights & pages and you one line is a (my) problem I have yet to deal with (and will probably take me years...).

Warning Note for PC users of Windows Photo Viewer (Slideshow view): I have found - if you still use Windows Photo Viewer (e.g. Win7, XP)- that the 'rotate' buttons will rotate and overwrite your photo, without any warning or confirmation, stripping/rewriting the EXIF information in the process (in spite of ignoring EXIF info to display anyway) and also altering the date/time stamp. Nor can you undo it. I imagine this could upset some cameras (and you) and date/time/file order if you happen to do it to the files on your memory card.

Having said that, if you wish to rotate the images this is the quickest way to do and save it- just no going back so only do it to copies.

G'day All,

I'm going to ask a slightly different question if I may. I've chimed in because Folks here (pitrack in particular) seem to have an incredibly good handle on these matters...

Question is....and please forgive my illiteracy in these matters.....question is....


Why can't I post photos here straight from the iPad?? I use it almost exclusively- to the point where arachnids now reside in the laptop. I can get as far as it uploading the photos to the site here (as JPEGs) but can't get past the 'All Done' button.

Loading to the laptop works and all but is so pain in the neck and.....redundant.

Cheers

G'day PRD how long do you wait for the pic to upload? I use a macbook air and have to wait a few minutes per photo.

Hi prd,

Firstly please make sure the file has actually uploaded before clicking "all done". You should get a filename (I think) and a thumbnail of the image when the upload has finished.

Don't own a macbook but here's some info, speculations and perhaps pointers that may help.

A couple of things can contribute to apparently failed uploads:
1) the image is actually quite large
2) the 'upload' direction of your internet connection can be painfully slow.

What happens is most of us download info- text, pics, videos, etc. Which is data heavy. But most of what we send are keystrokes asking for that info, which is a very small amount of data itself. So what the internet providers companies do is say, okay: People download megabytes (gigabytes nowadays) but only upload maybe kilobytes (1000s of times less than the downloads). So we'll configure our connection for that.

This especially applies for cheaper connections (like I have) or in the country.

It's like an 8 lane highway with 7 lanes coming to you and only 1 going away. You can receive data quick, but sending it can be a bottleneck.

Now that bottleneck occurs when you try to upload pictures- which is usually what you're downloading. Instead of 7 lanes you only have 1 so the traffic is slower.

'Nuff of the handwavy explanation. It could also be that there is an issue with upload. But let's perhaps try something first.

Before you try to upload the image, perhaps try to reduce the file size or resolution. I'm not sure how to do that on a Mac so perhaps someone more knowledgeable can weigh in?

Basically, the odk site will reduce the resolution anyway so you might as well do it. By reducing resolution you reduce the size of the file to send and hence the time taken. Sometimes programs are clever, for example if you try to email an image it will often reduce the size for you automatically.

But that's not likely here I suspect because of the way the site operates. I suggest you may be able to export or "save as" a photo from whatever program/app you use and in doing so some options may allow you to reduce the size/resolution/quality. Once that's done, try uploading the newly saved, reduced file.

Cropping the photo to the relevant area is another way of reducing file size.

And try just one file first.

I hope this helps in some way! I have exactly the same issue with my photos/upload speeds. Every photo I upload has been reduced in size for this reason.

Thanks Pitrack for the detailed reply. I very much appreciate your effort.

What you said makes sense. I will play around and let you know how I get on.

Cheers,