OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Finding and Swapping For Sale eBay Old Rotary: Another Unkown?

Hi Guys,

Found this on the bay, hoping anyone has any info on its origins please.


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Antique-Victa-Mower-/151808403017?hash=item23587c6649

This is now the third such mower Ive seen,

The first being identical,but running a Hurricane
The second had a smaller base but similar styling also with a Hurricane,
Now this with model 1 Roto Engine, and Hurricane Pulley.
Im assuming this also origionally had a Hurricane engine.

Now Ive always been of the understanding that NO other brand mower of this era used Victa parts, but all 3 mowers have Victa rotomo fuel tanks.
Initially I thought the first was a bitsa but the links and similarities of the 3 point to them being Correct Branded Mowers.

Soooo....Who knows what this is, keeping in mind Im certain it would have had a Hurricane engine.

Amplion Springs to mind on the smaller one Ive seen as it has a Hurricane engine and amplion Bakelite wheels.

But this one?

I would like it if its a known brand...And Ive a spare Hurricane to fit if it is....

Cheers.

looks so interesting though . sure the seller had an 18 up not long ago for parts too seems right up your alley sort of pope/turner ish .
where are all these things coming from !!!

Hello Mal & vccomm

Yes ... I've had this one on file and I've marked it 'unknown'.
Mal, did you keep photos of the others?

Well spotted that it is a Victa engine. You can just make out the top
transfer port cover (meaning it's not a Hurricane).

One of these has appeared on the Vintagemowers website:
[Note how the base appears to be pressed steel though, and this one
is later in that it has a height adjustment mechanism.]


[Image courtesy Vintagemowers.net]

Whether Amplion was behind this mower is not known.
At this stage, I have only a suspicion that it was.

It certainly is rare though. I hope it goes to an ODK member.

All very mysterious.
-------------------------------
JACK

Yes, this is the small one, I was refering to. And Im certain its an amplion as it has Amplion front wheels and Hurricane engine. I have also seen an Image awhile back that shows this model. It was around 59-60 and the second generation of amplion rotaries. Unfortunately I cant refind the Site and Image, But Im 99% certain now thanks to your Image.

Your Image almost proves this correct with the Victa tank. Its too coincidental.

No the other one is gone but it had a hurricane engine.

Im also now leaning towards this being amplion also...BUT the use of a model one engine puts its originality to question as the base style is in my opinion around 1960 approx... 5 years after the model one engine was last used. Also the use of a Hurricane pulley. They are an easy swap and were often interchangeable with Victa engines.

Thanks for the info as this has all but confimed my Suspicion Of them being Amplion.

Also if proven 100% This would make 4 Amplion models Ive seen, upping my initial thoughts of just 2.

These mowers if accurate would also as a whole be among the rarest rotaries of all.

Thanks

Anyone in QLD close to this? Please pm me if you can help me get it to you,so I can arrange IS pickup

Cheers

Ive had a closer look at this Jack, and the rear wheels are definately Amplion Bakelites...The front are Roto or Champion tinnies...

Another point to note is the muffler...Its the same on both, and is an uncommon style.

Yep

they have the distinctive rings on the rear ones.
I wonder what the large holes in the base front were for?

In any case, best of luck to members who may be bidding for this one.
I hope it goes to a loving collector - ODK member preferred

All very interesting.
--------------------------------
JACK

Did you win it HT6 ?

Well, this one caused a lot of frantic bidding.
I hope it did go to a member; as I would like more info. on it.

All very interesting.
-----------------------------
JACK

Sorry Guys, I never bid because I couldn't organise freight.

Hopefully someone here has it....:)

The ad mentions a speed of 7000r/min......surely this would be impractical / unsafe?

Didn't see that? But yeah 7,000 rpm would be double the limit of a Model 1 125....And truthfully, impossible to get on a std 125 engine.

Hmmm

When the new 125cc Victa engine was introduced the company advertised it as
2� h.p., more than double the rating of the 98cc Villiers Midget.

Mysteriously, within a couple of years, that engine became 3.6 h.p.!
I do not believe that this could have been due to changes made in that
time: ignition, fan-forced cooling, etc.

Maybe this new rating was achieved 'on the bench' at 7,000 rpm.
In any case, Victa were the masters of marketing hype and puffery.

Well spotted Dieselboy.
-------------------------------
Jack

So True.....

I investigated the power rating discrepencies a while back and found power increase for the New 125 for the Automatic and Model 3 Rotomo was achieved via transfer port positioning, shape and angle. Simply....The barrel design was changed. This explains how they achieved the 3.6hp with seemingly no visual changes.

So there is no Mystery when you actually look inside...:)

This ad clearly shows A Rotomo Engine which was prior to the New generation Victa 125 3.6 engine, and if fitted to a Victa would have retained its 2.5hp rating. So the claim of the extra 1hp would be purely due to the addition of the larger jetted Amal Carby,thus allowing Amplion( if thats what this mower is) to make the higher power and Rpm claim....

Race applications of Victa 125 can run consistently and reliably at 8,000 rpm plus due to Port work and The Amal carby.

So while Victa were masters of embellishment as Jack says, I think in this case the claims may well be fairly accurate...

Hello Mal!,

Thanks for that important information.
I will record that for when the Record appears ... at some time

I do feel, however, that Victa did embellish this because the claims are
based on unrealistic rev ranges for lawnmower applications (?)

The Fabulous Victa Engine booklet I put up tells a realistic story - and
by Victa themselves! 1� h.p. at 2500 rpm, declining after that.

See: https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=66878

Yes, Ive seen the graphs, and there is another also.

They show the later engine styles in governed form, and are correct as shown, but have no relevance to the engine fitted to the Amplion/unkown.

The First generation 125 as fitted to rotomo and the 3.6hp 125 as fitted to Auto and Model 5 special are ungoverned and therefore have higher power outputs close to those claimed. And With the addition of the Amal carb, even greater performance would be achieved.

We are talking about early generation engines where pollution,economy,durablity etc were less of a concern and "More Power" Meant everything when selling early machines.

Rev ranges for earlier Victa machines were not governed,and relied solely on throttle position and carby size allowing a far greater rev range to be achieved. Then with the addition of the Amal, even more performance would be achieved over the standard 125, making these HP and Rev claims in the advert pretty close IMO...

I guess, the main point here was the Question.... was it even necessary or safe?

Not really, This is one of a few reasons why engines became governed,(Ever felt and heard a Special at full throttle!lols) but at the time this is what technology allowed.

These early mowers are from an era where the toe guard was barely thought of, And "More Power"Claims sold machines, a far cry from the more modern technology of the safer,quieter,more fuel efficient and reliable 70 series machines.

In any case I still think these ratings are fairly accurate to the Victa 125 fitted Mower in the Advert....but not of those on the later 70 and 80 series governed engines in your graph where a lower Hp rating is seen and the optimal rev range is 3200-3500 rpm.

Hello Mal,

A Victa 125cc engine will not change its horsepower at a specific rpm, governed or ungoverned.
We will never know the true outputs without independent testing. The point I make is that
Victa used every inch cubic inch of puffery in their marketing campaigns.

I think the later Victa figures of torque and horsepower presented in a document not aimed
at public consumption are closer to the 'honest' mark for lawnmower application.

The rest is history.
---------------------------
JACK

Please read the quote carefully...

It does not say...."A Victa 125cc engine will not change its horsepower at a specific rpm, governed or ungoverned"

The early 125 3.6hp engine does not fall under the specs of your graph!

Its not bound by the same rpm limit of 3,500 aprox rpm in your graph example. It is ungoverned and has a 7,000 rpm limit, twice that of the 125 in your graph specs.

This higher rev limit will increase hp levels higher than those quoted in your graph and very similar to that which is quoted in the Amplion/unknown mower ad, making these claims fairly accurate.

As I said, your graph has no relevance to the HP rating of the victa engine fitted to the mower in the ad or of any earlier Victa 125cc engine!

Whats in your graph and What Victa did on later engines is debatable as Puffery and your opinion,but it doesnt apply to the earlier ungoverned engines which run at much higher rpm than 3,500 and will by law of power,naturally produce more HP...

Hello Mal

Always nice to hear your opinion on these things.

I wasn't aware of a 'Law of Power' claiming that hp will continue to increase
naturally with rpm.

In any case, we have no independent, verifiable proof of the claims Victa
made in their advertising.

My view is that Victa were very ambitious in their hp claims, given the
hp ratings of similar capacity engines of the day. It's my opinion.

The main thing is that opinions can be expressed in a respectful manner.
Don't bang your head too hard there.

Hope this helps.
---------------------------------
JACK

My appologies for the Poor choice of words..."The power equation" is more accurate...

And yes they can...Im very happy with my opinion thankyou

This topic is now locked.
The primary issue is the identification of the auction site mower.
It is not at all clear it is an Amplion mower. I have categorised this
mower as 'unknown'.

If you have any information on this mower please PM a moderator and
this topic will be unlocked.

I identified this mower a few years' back. It is a Colda.

https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=70664

----------------------------
JACK