OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Restoring, Customising and Modifying Tech Talk Victa special tools

Power torque tools.

Crank Pin.
The genuine tools for undoing the Power Torque crank pins are expensive.
You can make your own out of a couple of ordinary sockets for around $20 each. I used 3/8 sockets as thats the set i mainly use and thats what my torque wrench is.

For the early model with the for slots you need a 20mm 12 point socket, i bought mine from bunnings.
Mark it so you leave points at 4 even spots around the socket and get into it with a grinder. A 1mm wide cutting disc and a steady hand is all you need. i suppose a dremel would be good too. You may have some luck fine tuning it with a file toward the end.
I started out with a crappy tiawanese socket, but it broke so i bought the kingchrome socket. Had no trouble since but i have not used it much.


For the later model with the two flat sides you need a single hex 21mm socket. I special ordered mine from the local bearing supplier. Remove everything but two sides of the socket. Most sockets have a tapered leading edge, i ground mine down a bit so the edge against the socket is a square corner.
This one is a bit more tricky, to locate the socket on the pin, i got a bolt with a 21mm head and drilled a hole in it so that it will fit nicely over the pin. It does work, but its not central, probably not square either, thats a bit hard in a drill press, especially in the vice i have, I'm going to get a friend to do it in his lathe for me. Once i have that done i will pein it over or something so the nut is permanatly fixed into the socket.

I will probably do the same with the one above for the early models. They can be very tight. If thats the case i advise hitting the conrod with a hammer to break it, removing the crank and then using other means to remove the crank pin.





Starters,

On the early starters they have a 'stuffer block' held on with two screws. Remove this, and the spring clip and you can hold the 'throw out' in the vice and undo the nut to pull the starter apart.
If you do not take the clip off it gets caught.
Heres on with the block off, the clip is a bit deformed.
Clamp it either side of the rectangular bit.



On the newer starters this 'stuffer block' is cast into the starters.
This ones a bit crusty looking, it was the closest one i found.
The clip is different to the earlier ones.


I made up a holder to hold the 'throw out' to get the starter apart.
Clamp the holder in the vice.


Its a bit of a ballancing act but you can get them undone and fixed.


Another handy thing is a washer. Something with a hole in the middle thats the same size or a bit bigger than the hole in the blade disc and the same thickness or a bit thicker.
When putting the motor back together with new bearings you can pull the whole lot together with blade disc nut.


If one of the Moderators could make this a sticky that would be great.

Hi Bob, thanks for posting this information, I have no doubt it will create a lot of interest and comments....As requested, it is now a sticky post.

Rodeobob,

I would be very careful using the sockets that you have made because you would have reduced the hardness of the sockets when you have cut them down, just make sure that you DO NOT use them on a rattle gun.

I wish I had of known that I could have made them sockets a few months ago.I had to throw out an engine that would have been fixable.Only due to I couldn't get the crank out.I didn't think it would have been that easy.Oh well it's gone now.Thanks Bob if I have to do it again I now know how to do it.

Although I am a Great Supporter of "the right tool for the job"
and do advise if you going to make a career of this, probably best to get them
they'll pay for them selfs within a few jobs, I guess
If you want them Bruce would be your man

but sometimes for occasional use the cost just cant really be justified
which is my case, so a good work around is a blessing

Granted and very true Bruce there is a measure of risk!
as with all things "improvised"
but thats possibly what we do best in OZ :)


Still for a little time and a few dollars
it beats bashing them off with a hammer and screwdriver I guess
(it seems it works but risky in my book, hammer screwdriver that is)

I do believe in "right tool for the job" thought
(even if you got to kinda make one your self...
may not be a perfect 10 in every respect
but a lot better then nothing)

less chance of damage to object your fixing
or more importantly you *
and a lot less frustration mostly

Thank you again Bob
just my thoughts anyway

Blumbly pity Mate

( * but well there's also the possible beware as Bruce pointed out)

Hi All,
I also believe in "the right tool for the job", but at the price now being sought for these special tools, for the home handyman that likes to tinker (as we all like to do here)
being able to make the sockets yourself is a viable alternative.

As Bruce has said, the case hardening would have disappeared due to heat in the grinding process, but, with care, and no rattle gun...should do the job adequately taking into account the number of times the tools would be used.

Provided it started out as a high quality socket and it didn't get hot when it was ground to shape, I think the 20 mm one should be just as good as a purpose-made bought one. I'm not so fond of the 21 mm one, I'd do that one differently (use a flat piece of carbon steel, end mill a slot, weld to the back part of a socket, harden and temper with a gas torch). My reason is, to make the flat parts that do the driving massively resistant to spreading. If the torque requirement were high enough, Bob's would spread.

If you don't have a milling machine, you can do the same job with a drill and a file, it just takes a bit more time and care.

If the torque requirements were that high...I would bet that you would normally use 1/2" square drive sockets rather than Bob's 3/8" set....

I agree, Deejay, I generally only use 3/8" drive when there isn't room for 1/2". Because I don't know how much torque is required for this job I'd seriously consider 3/4" drive - the main concern is that 3/4" drive sockets are much more expensive and a lot less common in flea markets.

well you guys are the Experts here
but just from the Gregory's SP No. 403
page 19 "Torque Wrench Settings"

for the Power Toque Engine Type

Crankpin = 67~75 Nm (50~55 ft/lb)

on page 22 its showing a diagram with the 4 pin version
(I dont when it changed but guess same still applies anyway)

I suppose all the relevant information
as to why you may be using one of these tools
is in the forum manuals section...
(ring piston replacement etc...)

just for reference this information..
but open to comment as always..
Thanks guys

HTH Cheers...

PS that I guess is from factory
but well... who truly knows what you got when you try it...
like those that have gone before you...?

When you install something and tighten it to 50-55 lb ft, that doesn't mean you can get it out years later by applying 50-55 lb ft in the opposite direction. It may be more, it may be less, but if it hasn't come loose, it will probably be more, due to micro-corrosion in the thread. And by my standards, 50-55 lb ft is outside the proper range for 3/8" drive sockets. It is not a problem of shearing the drive, it is an issue of bearing pressure on the four corners of the coupling. The squares can be mashed slightly.

Thanks Grumpy & point taken, a very good one too
I hadn't thought of that to be honest
(but I know that does happen over time things get tighter)

really it was just to give the guide of where it was set or should be according to the manual anyway
but more so to give you guys the baseline for the discussion..
(and can someone confirm I got that info right just in case)

bare in mind mate noob here
but I'll as the question
since that 4 square was the first and latter was two long sides

am I right in thinking that the later distributes the pressure required over a greater surface area, thereby lessening the "point pressure" I "think" your referring too with the 4 point pin?

(analogy kinda, like thin ice, walking on it or spreading you Weight type idea)

meaning the oblong (two sided) pin, (latter one)
possibly the better idea of the two designs ?

The 1/2" is that more suitable to the job ?

(bare with me on this Grumpy)
I am not quite sure I follow on the 3/8 and 4 point
but that would be my noobness
(lack of understanding)
not what you said..

to me it sounds like you saying the problem is with the 4 points
but yet I think you mean a 3/8 set just really isn't up to those pressures..

Arrhh ok let me rephrase that;

the 3/8 set isn't up to those pressures distributed over only 4 points..is that what you mean?

sorry mate for being a complete nooby here on this..just trying to understand it more clearly

Thank you

Cheers

Thunder and lighting here Guys so going to shut this down

Point taken Bruce.
I suppose i should have put a disclaimer in there somewhere.

$40 vs $180
I did take care not to put too much heat into them. No blue bits.

They are vastly stronger than the modified to 4 point Tiawneese socket i started with. It did 5 engines then i had to re do it, then it did 2 more until i came across a pin that would not come out.
Broke the socket again, nothing left to make points out of while still having the square drive hole, so i broke the rod, got the crank out and threw it in the bin.

Hence the advice to put a bolt head in the socket with a centered hole drilled in it. Help avoid failure due to lateral instability IE: keeping the socket square to the 'face' of the bolt.

I did cut a bit deep on the 21mm socket there in one spot. Spreading was a consideration as that is what happend to the 13/16 tiwanese socket i started with first up. Didnt even undo one pin with it.
See how that socket last.
If i have a failure i will be sure and post it up. I would use these sockets more than most who would be looking for the same solution.

At the end of the day, the time and effort is worth nothing. At $20ea for a donor socket i can chew through 4 home made ones before i have spent the $90 they want for the real deal.
Vastly better idea than screwdriver and hammer.

Anything shy of a single hex on single hex i would not use an impact gun on anyway.


I went 3/8 as i only have a 3/8 torqe wrench, and i usually use 3/8 stuff.
Most pins are way less than 55nm to undo. Some are way way tighter.

Thats it DeeJay59,
Grumpy means deforming the 3/8 drive square. Drive force is transfered to the leading points of the square.

In all my years ive destroyed something 3/8 once. Twisted then end of an extension using it in a drain bung, it tore it through the hole with the ball and detent spring. If i remember right a bit of pipe was involved and it was a cheap brand extension.
Well im not counting the 1/2 out to 1/4WW deep reach socket ive got that i use on my 3/8 rattle gun. Thats one abused socket. I look at it as, they couldnt sell me a 1/4WW single hex socket so i made my own.

My 3/8 ratchet is made in Japan, brand unknown, wobble head and about 10" long with a knurled handle, so it does have a fair bit of leverage. Has had a bit of pipe put over the handle on more than a few occasions.
Id say brand name 3/8 would be easily safe to 55 lb ft about 80 lb ft would be the limit.
I know quite a few trade mechanics both car and truck that use 3/8 stuff for day to day jobs.
For bikes (and mowers) i use the 1/4" stuff a lot too.

Either way I will wait to hear some results before I try.I mean I think it would be OK for me seeing as I would only use it once in a blue moon.

Recently started fiddling with Victa PowerTorque Mowers. Special tools $87 each... no way. I bought a couple of large nuts from Bunnings and hack sawed and ground them out in a similar way as has been done with these sockets. Then bought 1/2" drive sockets for the nuts. Used a rattle gun for the first - no worries but after reading warnings on this forum I have found I can easily remove the crankpins with my 1/2" tension wrench. (tip is leave the engine in the chassis so you don't need to stop it moving.) I removed the head first and put a snug fitting piece of softwood in the bore with the head refitted to stop the engine turning.

My versions

I've often used the old screwdriver and hammer cheat with the 4-point crank pins, and for starter bolts a large shifter in a vice get's me by, but I am keen to make u some of these to make life a little easier, and remove risks to the engine!

Cheers Guys!

The starter nut is the same size as the disc nut on the crank. 24mm i think it is.

It's great when people give us their shortcuts and "how to's"; Thanks Bob!

I was going to put this as its own topic, but here will do, unless anyone thinks it should be on its own.



Cant get enough rust free Victa Power torque bases??
The older victa full crank bases are made from a way thicker less rust prone steel. Reuse one of them.


I made this up.



Power torque is the same mount pattern as a Briggs/Tecumseh/Honda etc just with an extra hole/bolt under the carb.


Take your plate of steel (you could use alloy) and shape it on a regular Victa power torque base, Mark the engine mounting holes, find centre and drill them. Find centre in the plate and drill a hole here. You can refference the next steps off this hole.
Use the metal plate from under a power torque on a Full crank steel base, set the plate out on the base and measure a million times to make sure its concentric/central. Mark and Drill it out for the full crank.
Then put the plate on a dual drilled Victa base and you can mark up the forward facing holes (the ones with arrows in the pic)


For the middle step above you could also use an alloy mustang base, some of these had the lugs underneath that just needed drilling, but beware some were full crank or 4 stroke only. No power torque.



Now you can get a steel base victa with a dead full crank on it and redrill it to take another motor. I havent actually tried it on an alloy base, havent had the need as yet but I assume it would work fine.
Bolt your plate to the base and if it has the dimple, drill it for a power torque, or no dimple, a 4 stroke. Depending on the motor you might be able to mount the 4 stroke sideways or forwards. Then out with the plasma cutter to do the muffler cut out and cut out the centre hole to the bigger diameter, ive got a template for that too, its just a trimmed down cut out from another base. I suppose you could jigsaw/recipro it out too if youve got good blades.


P.S. Its a handy thing that plasma cutter. If you have a compressor you should put a plasma cutter on your to buy list. Way less heat than an oxy. It leaves a nice oxidised coating on the cut so that if you dont paint it it wont rust away. You can easily cut all sorts of shapes a grinder wont do.
Only bad thing is they do use a bit of air, like an oxy cutting freehand can make a fair wobbly mess.


Oh and I probably should have got some shots of it on an actual base.

Heres another trick

8mm bolt, cut the head off it and put a slot in the top with a hack saw.

Handy for putting motors on and of bases. Not so good for the later ones wit hthe long bolt behind the muffler as you need to use a different hole.
You can also clamp the bolt in the vice and fiddle with the motor, good for testing spark if youve had it flipped over on the bench messing with the coil or coil lead.

Doesnt matter if it gets a bit trashed, its easy to make another one.






This trick works for most mowers.
Trusty block of redgum. Set the height lever so its straight up and down. Tip the motor sideways and rest the height lever on the block of wood. Works on victas and rovers and the like.

Well I must say bob you are full of it.................advice that is. You do seen to know a few handy tricks. Good work.

You can also do the same with a 3/8 bolt for the later 4 strokes.