OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Collectors Corner Rotary POPE: Model 320 - My Early Popes

My two early Pope mowers
Model ??
Year ??
Ian





It is interesting how the blades swing back into a slot on the cutting disk

awesome i have never seen ones like this before

Hi Ian,

Mate, info on these early Pope's is thin on the ground, I have tried to do some research this morning for you, but to no avail.
I would hazard a guess that they would be from the 60's, but as to model or colour scheme...I haven't a clue.

Are those examples of the famous 1959 rotary valve Pope? They look like it to me. If so I suggest you keep them - I haven't seen one in 50 years now.

You can see some pictures of the engine here, if you go right down to the bottom of the page:
http://www.vintagekart.4t.com/photo_46.html

They were discussed in passing in a thread, here:
https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=35018#Post35018

I had a similar model Pope running a villiers mk 3 it was a 60 model from memory,but had a pressed steel base very similar to this and possibly earler than the one in ty's thread.. So Id say by styling its a late 50s model as Grumpy says. I saw a thread a while back by Memeber "Joe Brown identifying one in the thread as definately being POPE. ....Maybee he might be able to shed some light on the model details?.

Sorry its all I got never seen one either

Carburetor goes to bottom of engine - rotary valve



Carburetor made in Australia



I have only one of the original side guards

Yep, you've got a pair of rotary valve Popes, in what looks like very close to original condition. It would be useful to document them - these are the first to ever turn up on Outdoorking, I think.

The first really complete ones, anyway. There have been a few posts of incomplete and 'bodged' ones in the past here, but that's all. Pope also made push reel mowers, and their first power mower was a motorised [petrol or electric] version of that. These I'd say, were the second generation. By 1965, Pope had gone to wind-up starters.

A small amount of discussion on these rotary valve Popes on this thread:
https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=51035

A couple of pics of an incomplete one, that shows the original colour well: https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=12396

These were around 1958-early 1960's vintage. My old man bought one around 1966, and it was secondhand even then. I still remember that beast; it could be a bit of a bear to start, but was quite grunty.

No idea about model designations, but this crew have a few instruction manuals for sale; http://www.ozwrenches.com/manuals-mowers.htm


A search on the National Library's 'Trove' site for Pope mower ads in that timeframe will likely find some ads with line drawings.

Here's one: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/101370657
And one with some pics: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/103071715

Heres one to add,pity its not side view as well but it shows good colour and sticker style.

Dug out my other Pope mower and the carburetor is on the other side still goes to the crank housing
Look at what the original painted on the fuel tank
Ian

Look at what the original painted on the fuel tank
Should read Look at what the original OWNER painted on the fuel tank
Ian

Hey Ian, the original owner was not bad at sign writing was he!
Nice machine in great condition for its age...BTW...were the white hubcaps original on this model?

A History Record is now available for this lawnmower.
Please view the record in the History Forums HERE.

The rest is history.
-----------------------------------
JACK.

His sign writing is cool, but his Math? That mix would make approx 14:1....Very well lubricated, No engine wear in this model as he probably couldnt start it lols.

16:1 actually, but that was what the factory recommended.

This was in the 1960's, before the specifically formulated two-stroke oils became widely available.

Even then, most of the first ones on the market were intended for water-cooled outboard motors, not air-cooled engines!

That only changed when high-performance 2-stroke motorcycles started coming out of Japan in the mid 60's, and not immediately even then. Even in the 70's, Castrol Super Outboard was the specified oil for Echo engines.

Seriously? Why does Victa, villiers and just about every other 50s mower run between 25 and 32:1. They were also using the same oils. Never heard of a 2 stroke ratio so low. Actually my fuel book says Pope is 1/4 pint PG. Must have just been the early Pope engine?

You'd have to ask the factory engineers of the time that one!
Keep in mind also, that there were these early rotary valve Australian engined Popes, and a later 1970's on 2-stroke series that used a Japanese Fuji Robin engine. Totally different beasts.

The early Victa mix was actually 24:1 [1/3 pint Castrol XL to 1 gallon of Standard grade petrol], and quite a few 1950's Villiers [e.g. the Midget series] ran 16:1.

As did many of the earlier chain saws, up to the Mono [US] sourced Mobilco saws that were still [though only just] on the market in the early 1970's. Primitive beasts, those things!

Hi Blue and Gadge,

I was just passing through.
The link to the Historical Record for the Model 320
does show the recommended mix as being 1/2 pint to 1 Gal.

Blue asks an interesting question, and Gadge's reply is probably correct -
ask an engineer of the time. But ...

There may have been inconsistent quality control in earlier times,
with fuel in particular. I have seen records expressing concern about
some consumers not understanding more complex ratios, and also the difference
in the 4-cycle engines folks had become accustomed to, and the two strokes.

A second reason may be about quality control within the engine itself.
So, I speculate that the ratio was a fall-back simple ratio to be safe, rather than sorry,
and probably grounded in the history of quality control for oil, fuel and engine production.

In reference to the Midgets, this was the ratio for early two-strokes, but I note that in my
Villiers Midget book they recommend 20:1 once the engine was run in:-
[Note the concerns about oil brands and adequate mixing]



Cheers
---------------------------
JACK.

CyberJack, I defer to your comprehensive knowledge of the Villiers Midget engines.

My reference for that fuel/oil mix was the Owners Manual for the Midget engined Ransomes Minor Mk6, which came up in a past ODK thread we both posted to. Which just said to use 16:1 ratio. That was with SAE50 viscosity oil, too..

Yes, That makes sense. I didnt take into consideration the oil of the day.

I run all my Rotomos at 25:1 and My midgets at 32:1. I cant even run a Villiers 3/5 G at 25:1 as it spits oil.

So This is why I never noticed original fuel mixes for some mowers being as low as 16:1. My book also says the same for Midget....But the manufacturer specs for Villager running a 5 g is 32:1...Only 28cc different. Go figure.

A testament to todays oils I guess. And im thinking manufacturers original Ratios no longer apply.

Thanks guys, a bit of relearning is good.

Very true, that. Few people outside of the lubricant/tribology [lubrication engineering] field realise just how great the advances in these technologies have been, in the period 1950's to the present day.

Changing the fuel mix ratios can be a bit tricky though; as the changes in density, viscosity and surface tension of the fuel/oil mix will also have a significant effect on the fuel/air mixture ratio that a carburettor achieves. All else being equal, lowering the oil content will tend to richen the mixture.

Blue and Gadge,

Gadge, I understand the smiley emoticon after 'comprehensive knowledge'

Yes Mal,

I think oil and fuel and the ability of them both to stay in suspension,
as a mix, was of concern 'in the day'. Note that Villiers in their instructions
only recommended one brand ... "Oils ain't oils".

I think we are all old enough to remember:-

[video][/video]

A History Record is now available for the Pope Model 320.
That record may be viewed at:

https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=59826



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