OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Engines Questions On Victa Two Stroke Engines Starter not catching - Engine not kicking over

Hi all,

I've got another old Mustang, this one has a couple of problems.

The first issue is that when trying to pull start it, sometimes, the pull starter doesn't catch and the cord just comes out and goes back in with no resistance. I removed the pull start mechanism and checked that everything appeared to be in place as it should be. I found that the clip had actually come out, but I put that back in place and tested again. It appeared to pull start normally a couple of times, but then it went back to not catching. I haven't removed the pull start mechanism again to check again. The spring is always working though, retracting the cord as it should.

The second thing is that it's not kicking over when it does catch. I've confirmed that the spark plug is firing, so it must be either a compression or fuel supply issue. When I removed the starter mechanism, I noticed that the pull start mechanism appeared to be almost entirely dry. At this point, I'm thinking it's an issue with the supply of fuel. I rebuilt the carby and re-installed it, but still nothing. I have a spare carby I'm going to try putting on as a test to see how it goes, I'll let you know the results once I have.

Finally, when the pull start does catch and rotates the engine, it seems to be a bit jerky, a bit difficult to pull start. It feels like the decompressor isn't on there and instead I'm trying to start with full compression. That said, I have experienced the same issue with not only the original decompressor, but a brand new replacement I put on there. Does anyone know why this may occur, other than the decompressor?

Working on this mower so far between worn parts and troubleshooting, I have:

-> Replaced both manifold seals
-> Replaced the carburettor cover seal
-> Cleaned the needle and seat (The cover was originally spewing fuel from the primer bulb and is now not)
-> Checked that the main jet is clear
-> Sucked on the diaphragm cover hose to confirm the carby will hold vacuum
-> Replaced the blown head gasket (There did not appear to be any wear in the cylinder)
-> Replaced the crankcase seal
-> Repaired the pull start spring
-> Confirmed the pull start mechanism is assembled correctly (Twice)

Has anyone ever experienced the pull start mechanism/clip being faulty/wearing out/coming out of place?

Cheers in advance,

pau13z

Hi Paul I assume it is a cup starter you are talking about, if so the problem is well known, they weren't the best of design

Hi Norm,

No, it's a PowerTorque, again I believe a V40, late 80's model, same as my last post.

Hi Paul , not sure how to free the 2 arms up, pull the starter off and see if you can get them moving a bit better, bit of oil in under the pulley may help. I just put another pull starter on. As for not starting, I have a procedure for testing if it has been straight fueled and if so it is only good for spare parts, not worth repairing. This is always my first step before wasting any more time on them

Hi Pau13z,

Is your blade carrier still fitted to the engine while trying to start the engine? Only because on my powertorque mower that I tried out last week it seems to start fine when I had the blade carrier and blades still fitted to the engine. When I removed the blade carrier I then tried to turn the engine over again with the starter and I had the same sort of symptoms as what you are mentioning above. It might be something else but this happened to me and I thought I would at least let you know.

Cheers!

Good call there Converse a loose blade carrier is enough to dislocate you fingers

Replaced the fuel tap? Was a great little tip I got on this forum. It looked fine, but stank of varnish from ancient fuel. Can only assume it was gummed up.

No blade carrier or even a loose one will mess up spark timing.

Hi Norm,

When I removed the starter and rotated the two arms, they did rotate (Although I had to fight the spring a little because I didn't disassemble the rest of the assembly), but other than that it did move normally, it's just that it didn't appear as if any 2-stroke mix in there, flicking about and lubricating things. When it was disassembled I did spray a drop of WD40 in there to ensure it was all lubricated, but again after re-assembling, it caught a few times, then stopped catching. Sometimes when that happens it will start catching again, sometimes it won't. So the question I guess (Which I could test on a bench I guess), is when pulling the starter, is it flicking out and not catching? Or is it not flicking out? I'll investigate further and get back to you.


What test/procedure do you follow?


Also, I do this as a hobby on the side. I like troubleshooting and diagnosing and coming to a positive conclusion where possible, even if it means replacing lots of parts and spending lots of money (Not that I want to of course). For me, it's about taking something broken in this throw-away world of ours, and ending up with something that works and works well, and knowing why it wasn't working. I try to look at things like.. even if the bore is scorched, even if the piston or the main bearings need to be replaced... If I can hone it, repair it, replace it, fix it, and end up with a functioning system, I've won


Hi Converse,

You know what, I don't know. Haha. I'm relatively certain it is, and I'm relatively certain I've tested that the engine is spinning without trouble while not using the pull start, by rotating the engine via the blade disc, however now that you've mentioned it, I'm doubting myself haha. I'll check tonight and let you know what I find

Cheers guys,

pau13z

Hi Mystyler,

I don't think it's the tap, I've replaced the fuel hose as well and the replacement is clear. When attaching the hose and turning on the tap, you can clearly see fuel running down and into the carby, and as mentioned before, when I originally got the mower the needle and seat were gummed up so fuel was squirting out of the primer bulb. After cleaning the needle and seat there are no more leaks, so fuel flow shouldn't be a problem, but cheers, much appreciated (As is all of the feedback)

Cheers,

pau13z

Something I'm thinking, now that I'm thinking back on it, I want to check for 2 things. I want to double check the carby body for any cracks, and I want to double check the main jet and where it screws into. I did clean the carby, but I can't remember if I checked if that hole was clear/clean. If it's blocked up, then no fuel would get in, that would explain the lack of lubrication, possibly explain the pull start mechanism issue, and would certainly have something to do with the mower not kicking over. I'll investigate further and get back to you all!!

Converse, do not waste your money repairing a PT when there is millions of them still out there. If in another 20 years when supply has dried up, then it might be worth your while. A straight fueled PT is going to need a rebore and O/S piston and if you can find in Melb anybody who will rebore a one off, all I can say is good luck. Only place left on my side of Melb is B&B Engines in Clayton and single cylinder rebores were costing me $100 some years ago now, then you need a new piston and rings and bearings and seal. At a guess you would be looking at about $150 all up. I guess if I took 40 bloks down to be bored I would get them at a better price because once he sets the machine up he can just fly through them, but at this stage I have no intentions of spending that sort of money on PT motors. F/Cs are ok if the rings are just worn, give it a hone and a set of rings and away you go again. Straight fueled, forget it
As for testing the motors, I have tested up to 10 a day as I have a rig that I just drop the motor on, clamped down,it has a good carby and fuel tank mounted on it. Test for spark, have spark and known fuel it should fire, if it doesn't it gets a squirt of starter fluid down the plug hole, if it makes no attempt to fire or give a burble it is a dead motor as far as I am concerned, because if it won't fire with starter fluid above the piston it has obviously been straight fueled and is scrap. They can still have compression but the will not fire. Pull the head off and the bore will always be damaged beyond economic repair

G'day pau13z,
I would still detach the fuel tank and fuel hose out of the carburettor and check that it's flowing out the end of the fuel hose reasonably well and not dribbling slowly. Just another thing to eliminate.

pau13z, sounds like we're doing the same thing. Fixing these things is fun, even if it costs a bit of money. It's cheaper than cars! Nice little hobby returning stuff that isn't really "broken" back to working order. It's the feel good factor, even if it's all new to me.

All the best with it.

Hi Norm,

There may be, but I don't have millions of them. I find some cheap ones that meet the criteria of what I want to restore and I buy them and fix them. To date, I haven't found one by the side of the road that meets the criteria that I'd normally look for, but I'll keep looking. But the reason I do it is for fun. While it can be frustrating, it can be very relaxing as well. As I said though, for me it's a hobby.

Obviously, I don't go out there looking for a straight fueled and damaged bore. But if that's what I happen to come across then I'll work with it. Why, because I can haha. I agree reboring begins to become costly, however, I do have a hone and I could try honing to clean up the bore and if it works, great!

I was searching around the forums here and found that people had previously said not to hone it, but you may need to bore it out. Is that only because boring it will get a more accurate result? Something I saw was that people had recommended reboring instead of honing because the results of honing could end up leaky rings and additional wear over time. I have 3 questions surrounding this. 1, If you hone correctly (And for a while), shouldn't you end up with almost the same result but not the same surface finish as reboring (An oversized cylinder)? 2, If the concern over honing is that you may cause additional wear over time due to the increased piston size, wouldn't you end up with the exact same issue if you rebored? It's not like a typical engine where you can insert sleeves due to all of the ports, so what's the advantage, other than a smoother more consistent bore? Finally, if you use an oversized piston and rings, should you have much play and cause additional wear? Isn't that the point of putting those oversized pistons in there, to clear up the gap you just created, which should essentially take it back to like brand new, just a little larger? Or does it have to do with wear based on the crank moving the piston?

Hi Mowerfreak,

Thanks for the advice. What sort of flow rate is to be expected? Assuming the tank has one of those long fibrous filters which is entirely covered with fuel? Should it literally be pouring out at full speed? If not, I'm assuming the components involved would be the tank cap, filter, tap, and hose?

Hi Mystyler,

Cheers mate, it does sound like we're on the same page and I completely agree. I'd love to work on cars but you've got to worry about storage and rego and costs and finding parts and more and more and more haha. Mowers are small and quicker and easier to work on. And exactly, it's about having fun fixing them up and restoring it to its former glory and getting that feel-good factor in there. As mentioned before, I just don't like to see something good or serviceable discarded in this throw-away world of ours when it can be used, and used well, with just a little maintenance. If I owned a mower shop I'd probably never leave though haha so it's a good thing that it's a hobby that I do when I have spare time, I can be a bit of a perfectionist (Who still makes mistakes, we all do) which slows me down lol.

Paul, honing a straight fueled motor requires too much metal removal and honing is just not accurate enough, bore can end up out of round and out of true. Don't be fooled by discarded 2 strokes, bodies and wheels can be completely trashed, rusted out, but the motors are fine and have years of life left in them, put a new viton tipped needle in them and most will fire straight up.. Four strokes are usually dumped because the Briggs is dead, the reverse with the Victa, motors often good but body is trashed.

Cheers NormK, yes I only found this out as you know I want to take everything off the deck on my mower to give it a freshen up and put it back together again. I knew that is seemed to start fine before I removed the blade carrier, then after I removed it a few days later I just tried to turn the engine over with the starter and yes it pulled back hard and was locking up like there was no decompressor at all. I didn't force it more because it was that bad it felt like the string was going to snap or wreck the starter.

So the blade carrier weight must be there as extra weight and balance for the engine.

Cheers!

Sure is, this is part of the reason it takes me a while when I am testing the motors on my test rig, I have to put the blade carrier on (no blades on it) then after I have tested it I have to remove the blade carrier again, all takes time, but there is no other way

Pau13z I can't describe adequately regarding flow rate to look for except to suggest pulling a tank off a working Victa mower and looking at that as an example. The best I can describe is that it comes out as a slow but steady stream rather than dribbling out in a broken flow, but best to do as I suggest so you can guage it for yourself with any others you check.

Here's a guy with a YouTube car restoring channel who also dabbles in getting Victas going.
Here is an example.
httaps://youtu.be/4b-zDJ0K1qg

OK so, updates!

- Yes, the disc and blades are installed.
- I couldn't see any cracks in the carby body. I also replaced the standard needle with one of the rubber tipped needles. I don't think this was necessary, but did it as a troubleshooting step wile it was apart.
- I confirmed that the main jet was clear.
- I confirmed that the internal channel between the main jet and the poppet valve was clear.
- I confirmed that with fuel supplied, it was running out of the carby outlet.

So at this point I know that fuel should be able to get into the engine. I have also previously tested spark and confirmed it was sparking. I have also already changed the head gasket and when I replaced it, from memory there was no scoring on the bore.

- I pulled the starter cord, it was catching and rotating normally.
- I sprayed SYB in the spark plug hole and tried to pull start it. Not only did it not start, but the pull start cord could not retract
- I removed the pull start mechanism. The spring looked OK.
- When removing the pull start shaft, I found it was dry.
- When inspecting the under side of the pull start mechanism, I found one of the pockets was full of what appeared to be a metal substance which I could not remove.

I initially thought maybe it was for balancing, but U don't think so. And if not that, what is it, where did it come from, and how did it get lodged in there? Could it be causing pull start issues? Finally, I think I'll try lubricating the pull start shaft to ensure it rotates with ease and isn't grinding in any way.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, I'll let you know the next update when I have it :-)

Cheers,

pau13z

Have you tried a couple of plugs with the SYB, if so and no peep from it I would think the motor is a dead one While you have the starter off and inspect the skirt of the piston (you can just see the bottom of it when the piston is fully down) and if there is the slightest scoring showing it is all over, it has been straight fueled