OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Restoring, Customising and Modifying Victa Walk-Behind Rotary Mowers 1971 Self Propelled

Well you know how it is.....

I was going to wait till I get back from my next work trip to start on the Self Propelled, but I couldn't help myself.

I thought I may as well strip a few parts off to get them soaking in Molasses while I'm away, and because its seized, I really wanted to get the head off to see what's going on inside the barrel and get it soaking in diesel - I'll be away for 6 months (no, not less with good behaviour!!) so six months soaking in diesel should help things.

So......photos

I will put a bunch of posts - each with a few photos of each stage of the restoration.

Enjoy

Polybus

This is the old girl as I received it - I've done nothing except pour some diesel down the Spark Plug hole....

It looks like it is seized with the piston low down in the bore - whatever I pour down the plug hole comes straight out the ports...and onto the deck.






And now with the cowl off - giving you a better look at the engine.







Pretty messy, but it could be a lot worse.

Polybus

Just took off (what is left of) the muffler and gave the whole thing a good cleaning - some will say sacrilege - but I just blasted it with the High Pressure Washer.

I will be completely stripping it anyway, so I don't care if it gets full of water etc - I don't think I can make it much worse.

And the pressure washer is good for cleaning in between the fins and other places that are hard to reach.

So - a good soaking in degreaser - wait 20 minutes and attack.

This is the result.








Came out OK - after cleaning I was able to have a better look at the hole in the deck - it's worse than I first thought - the hole has some cracks radiating off it, and one of the cracks goes all the way to the edge of the deck, not for from the wheel mount - Blumby is right - that is going to need a better fix than I had in mind - I like to do things myself, but I'm not sure I could do the welding to the deck, so will need to get this done by someone who knows what they are doing.

I'll put a photo of the hole/cracks in a later post when I am addressing the issue.

Polybus

Thought I'd have a quick look at the Self Drive Mechanism as I've not seen one of these before.

Very basic!!

First I had to take off the blade plate, and of course the nut was rusted and seized - but I learned my lesson from you guys doing this same job with The Triplets - lots of Penetrating Oil - gave it an hour and out with the Rattle Gun - BANG - off it came

The off with the Belt Drive mechanism cover - damn - didn't take any photos off the bottom of the mower before taking this off.

And this is what was inside the Belt Drive Mechanism....lots of rubbish - but not too bad.








And inside the gear box that sits on top of the deck.





Yuk - this has been full of water for quite some time - still - should be fixable - in fact it should come up well from what I can see so far.

Polybus

Took the engine off the deck - then took the head off.

YIKES!!!!




That should be fixable - but the barrel??!!?!?!








Hmmmmmmm - that bore looks like its been attacked by metal eating termites!!

It kinda looks like the wall of the bore is peeling away from the cast iron - did these things have a chrome bore - maybe the chrome is peeling away from the cast iron of the barrel.

I will have a better look at it tomorrow - I'm too scared to do it at the moment - I'm thinking it can't be saved at the moment, but maybe after some cleaning and honing, maybe a rebore, it will be back in action, maybe....

More as it progresses.

I'm pretty happy with it so far - I haven't snapped a single bolt/stud - which is quite unusual for me and I've managed to get quite a few bolts out - and only one has beaten me so far - but its soaking in Penetrating Oil as I write this, and will have another go at it tomorrow - half the trouble is there are other items around it, so I'm not getting a good grip on it - and from experience, I suspect that is just going to lead to a stripped head.

Time will tell.

Polybus

Victa 2-stroke barrels have always been unlined cast iron.

The question with that barrel is, how deep are any corrosion pits, and what diameter overbore would be required to eliminate them?

Oversize piston/ring sets are available up to 0.060"/1.5mm over standard bore.

Thanks for all those pictures Polybus. Let's pray that lining looks nastier than it is. And regarding the base, I certainly think it is worth paying someone skilled in aluminium welding. You will be glad you did.

The biggest problem is getting the piston out of the bore, getting another barrel should be easy, I assume it is just a 160.I'm assuming the crank will be rusted up as well so I guess another motor is the best option and use your cases to keep the engine number correct

A new engine - it may well come to that.

But one of the things I like about restoring anything, not just lawn mowers, is putting something back to as close as I can to the day it came out of the factory. So if I am force to replace parts, I like to replace as few as possible.

Consumables are slightly different - rings, plugs etc are fair game, but major components, I try not to replace, even if it costs me more money to restore rather than replace, I like to keep them original - but having said that - I also like to make them look like new - so I like to paint them too, which is not the paint from the factory, but I do try to get the colours as correct as I can.

So for this mower - first option is a rebore - if that's not an option, a new barrel, and if the bottom end is rusted up (likely) I'll see what I can do to get it going with the current bits

Last resort will be a new engine with the existing cases.

That's just my philosophy on restoration - we all like different things - and there is no right or wrong way to "restore" something - it's whatever gives us pleasure I guess.

Hopefully it won't be as bad as it looks - and I'm going to go and clean it up right now - more photos to follow.

Polybus

The base adapter plate is certainly interesting in the fact that it looks factory but the base could also take a 4 stroke motor as well. This is many years before the Powertorque was made to match the 4 stroke bases so they could fit whatever motor the market was wanting. I don't know of any other manufacturer doing that. Was Australia unique with its love of the 2 stroke or was it out type of grass we had to cut

Criminy, that thing looks like it's spent time as deck cargo on a submarine!

Now as you can imagine - this flywheel was - S T U C K!!!!!

I really think this is the first and only time these electrics have seen the light of day since it left the factory.

Being the hacker that I am (or hopefully was) - I usually get flywheels off with a a hammer, couple of chisels/wedges, penetrating oil and a bit of patience. Usually got them off, but as you can imagine, damaged some things as well - but no more!!!

Although I must admit, I did have a bit of a go, but with a rubber mallet, and it was only a token effort. No chance was this thing going to budge.

After you guys talked me into buying a rattle gun, and still being on a bit of a high after(once again) learning how much easier a job is with the right tool - I decided to buy a Universal Flywheel Puller.

As you are probably aware - there are three holes in the top of the Victa Flywheel where you can attach some bolts, and then the puller exerts pressure on the crank and off she comes.

Problem No: 1 - the holes on the flywheel had no thread in them?!?!?! How are you supposed to attach the bolts with no thread??

So I decided to thread them myself - threaded them with 1/4 inch UNF in an effort to keep them what I thought would be period correct.

So now I could attach the Flywheel puller.




So just screw down the big bolt in the centre, which presses against the crank and it lifts off the flywheel without damaging/breaking anything.

But was this thing locked on there!!!! Harding surprising I guess seeing all the corrosion, but the amount of force and penetrating oil I used had me concerned that I had neglected to unlock something, or there was some retaining pin I was just shearing as I pulled the flywheel up.

Process was Penetrating Oil - wait - Screw down Flywheel Puller until I got worried - More Penetrating Oil - wait (about 1 hour) - More Oil - A couple of taps with rubber mallet - More Flywheel Puller pressure - wait - Oil - Pressure - Oil - Wait - Wait - more waiting....then - Nothing.

Often these sorts of things will resist and resist and then POP!! and you can get it off by hand from there - not this bugger it fought and fought for every last mm. But it did come off in the end - with no damage.

And here is what I found inside.

The inside of the Flywheel:




Not too bad - should clean up nicely.


The electrics.....








Ewwwwww!! Bit of a mess - obviously points and condensor will need replacing - although I will give the condensor a test just to see if its working.

it will be interesting to see if the coil is OK - unlikely, but again, I'll test it to see how it goes.

Now to see if I can free up the piston, likely need to split the cases but would have to to do that anyway to replace the bearings - another job that will very likely need to be done.

Anyway - I hope you're enjoying the photos.

Polybus

G'day Norm - I guess the history of the base dates to the original Commander
Self-Propelled (that was only offered as a 4-stroke). I think when Victa
released the larger 160cc engine, they were keen to use it on the S-P for 1968,
but without updating the chassis.

In other words - as you say - the adapter plate looks factory ...
because the base was old; the engine was new.

Yes, great images Polybus. Many members are watching!

--------------------
Jack

Just a question before I end up snapping off three of the four head studs.....

Once I remove the nuts holding on the head and remove the head, I am left with the four head studs that go all the way through the head, the barrel and into the crank cases.

I am trying to get those studs out, one of the four came out quite easily, but I am getting to the point where the amount of force I am exerting on them is approaching the point where the studs will snap.

I am using good tools - proper stud extractors - so I am getting a very good grip on them, but to no avail.

The barrel is still in place - and my question is this:

Should I be able to remove the barrel just by sliding it up over the studs, or does the threaded section at the bottom of the stud grip both the crankcase and the barrel??

If I can take the barrel off then I should be able to grip the studs way down lowers, thus reducing the distance over which my torque is applied, thus lessoning the chance the stud will snap.

I suspect the barrel should just slide off the studs, but mine is being held fast because the piston is quite well seized into the barrel.

So....should the barrel just slide off the studs, or do I need to remove the studs before the barrel should come off??


Any other tips for removing the studs would also be appreciated.

I have tried, lots of penetrating oil, heat, stud pullers - I will let it all soak overnight and try again tomorrow.
Polybus

Hello Polybus
The studs should not be holding the cylinder.
Yes, you should be able to slide the cylinder over all four studs.
The thing preventing this will be the piston and rings.

Cheers
--------------
Jack

Thanks Jack,

I'll go easy on the studs then, and concentrate on freeing the piston, get the barrel off and then attack the studs.

I dunno what's going on inside the crank case, but I fear the bearings might be seized as well, which will make it hard to free the piston.

Bugger!!!


Polybus

Yes I can reiterate that the barrel normally slides off. It would make no sense for the studs to thread through the barrel as well.
Sounds like the engine needs to be vibrated apart!!
We will watch with baited breath and learn from this experience.

This should be interesting without soaking it in diesel for a month or two. Another thing to try is a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF and let that soak in the bore for a week. Another alternative is to break/smash the piston out with a chisel, it is all going to have to be replaced anyway, not a lot in there that can be salvaged

I'm not going to get too carried away with it at the moment. As you know I've only got a few weeks before I've got to leave Sydney for 6 months for work, so if I can't get it out, I'll just leave it soaking for the 6 months I am away and see how I go when I get back.

But having said that - I think I've got it to budge about 1-2mm - diesel, penetrating oil, Rust Remover, block of wood and a hammer.

Normally once it breaks free, you've got it beat, but this thing is still putting up a fight.

It's soaking now - so we'll see how it goes tomorrow.

The good news is I don't think the bearings are seized inside the crankcase - I can get the barrel to lift about 3mm up the studs, but no further. I can see that as the barrel moves up the studs, the piston remains stuck fast in the bore, so the bearings/crank must be turning, if only a little bit.

I get the feeling that if I stick a couple of screwdrivers between the barrel and the crank case and lever the barrel up (don't panic, I won't!! ), I could get it to travel further, but of course I would destroy the crank cases, so I won't be doing that - although maybe a couple of soft wood wedges

Patience is a virtue - especially to the mower restorer with a seized piston.

Polybus

This. Give it time!

There is also another option to remove the piston without any further damage to the bore - the chemical one.

We can go into that later on, if it should prove necessary.

I say spray the edges with plenty of WD40, forget it for 7 days and hit it with a block of wood and observe carefully if it has moved.
Even better would be an air hammer that I have used to do stuff a hand one couldn't.
It uses powerful pulses instead of brute force and has gotten me out of trouble before ( not for this though).

Yes exactly I'm very much the same way,but if you have to re-bore to save the cylinder (of which I highly doubt it is very very rusty)Re-boring mean that's it not the same as it was from the factory.If I'm restoring a engine and find that is has been re-bored.I straight away take it off and put a standard bore on it.As re-bored cylinders are not original.
In your case you will be lucky if you can even get it apart and what then? Nothing will be usable and you would have wasted so much time in getting it apart.I'd just start looking for a new cylinder.Will save you time and at the end of the job you will still be just as happy.As you will have saved something that was dead.

What I do is to get the two nuts on the thread tighten them together by turning them the opposite way to each other,then I have a spanner on the bottom nut and undo the stud.If you take the studs off you will be able to get the crankcase apart.I'm guessing you'll see more problems in trying to get the piston out.I feel that trying is only taking up time for you to see that there will be nothing savable.Cylinders,pistons and cranks really aren't that hard to find.

Well for a start, what are you using as penetrating oil? I'm not at all a fan of WD-40 for this - it's not at all good in this application, and wasn't designed for it.

Acetone and Auto Transmission Fluid mixed at 1:1 v/v is better than most commercial products; and as a last resort, brake fluid can sometimes save the day.

Yes, the barrel should just slide off the studs.

With very badly rusted studs, they may be rust-bound where they pass through the cylinder fins, as well as at the crankcase.
If it were my engine, I'd be thinking about using a 1mm thick cutting disc, to cut the studs a little above the cylinder base. As well as a 100mm angle grinder, I have a 3" pneumatic 'exhaust pipe cutter' which is very handy for such tasks.

Thanks for all the input guys - I'm learning lots from you all.

While I still haven't got the thing apart, I have had a couple of small wins.

1: The piston is budging, I've moved it about 5mm down the bore - so things are slowly breaking free. I am being as "gentle" as I can, while wacking it with a block of wood. Still giving it time and lots of penetrating oil.

2: I have managed to get another stud out - unfortunately the two left in are on opposite sides of the crankcase - so I still can't split that - but it appears time, patience and perseverance is winning. I really don't want to start cutting studs and things. I would really like to keep as many of the original parts as I can. Its not time - I don't care how long a restoration takes me - its not the money - studs could only be a couple of bucks - its just that when its all done, I can look at it and get some kind of weird pleasure in thinking that all those parts that were put together in the factory all those years ago and back together and functioning well - hey - I know I'm weird....

As per your advice - I have checked the studs where they travel through the fins to ensure they are not rusted to the fins - they are free - they just seem to have a very good hold onto the crankcase. Time and lube (I will make up some Acetone and Transmission Fluid and try that as well) should help. I can actually turn the crank shaft a little bit now, and I can see the barrel moving up and down the studs, with the piston still fixed in the bore.

2: I tested the coil - and it works!!! I know that doesn't guarantee it will work under load, but its a good start

At the moment I am amusing myself with little jobs, cleaning parts etc, while the barrel/piston is soaking in a bucket of diesel.

Hasten slowly Grasshopper!

Polybus

I'm not sure you read my post.This I have found is the best quickest and easiest way of taking the the bolts out.See below and my post above.

G'day all

The main thing is to preserve the crankcase numbers.
The fact that the cylinder has moved 5mm is equivocal -
is it a result of the crankshaft turning to reach TDC;
or has the piston genuinely moved in the bore?

Blumbly's 'two-nut' approach is the conventional method
for removing studs - but that may not be the best option here,
given the objective of saving the crankcase and the extra-long
length of the studs (torsional issues); and the severe corrosion.

Stud extractor tools are used commonly if the 'two-nut' approach
doesn't work.

My best advice is the un-seizing of the piston-to-cylinder.
Both Gadge and Norm have expressed the view of timely chemical
treatment.

It may be that holding the engine cylinder in one hand and tapping
down with a hammer handle on the piston head will do the trick.

This seems to be a multi-strategy approach, and I feel all contributors
have given good advice; but the most gentle must be the chemical and
wait-and-see approach.

After your long sojourn, we may have to call Chuck Norris.

----------------------
Jack

Let's stick with David Carradine for the moment.

Blumby - yes I did use your advice - sorry I should have mentioned it - I tried the two nut approach - and it worked really well as far a getting a good solid grip on the stud was concerned - it gripped it really solidly. In fact it gripped so solidly it got to the point where I felt the torsional force I was applying to the stud was just about sufficient to snap it - hence I gave up and decided to apply more lubrication and more time. But the two nut trick worked really well - as well as my Stud Extractors anyway.

The piston really has moved in the bore - it is only a small amount, but I can definitely see more of the ports, so it has genuinely moved in the bore a small amount.

I agree - I have received excellent advice for everyone - and I will continue using everyone's advice - lubrication, time, judicious use of mallet and wood, and patience.

As I said previously, I will need to head out of Sydney for 6 months in 5 weeks time - and if necessary, I am quite prepared to leave it soaking for the 6 months I am away.

Polybus

OK it does sound like to much waiting for parts that may not be savable but you do need to save the crankcase as you need the numbers as it was the original engine.
Aside from that what is it do that you have to leave home for 6 months? Sorry just curious.

There is a fast [destructive] chemical way to remove the piston, without any damage to the bore. These solutions will attack rust, but not iron/steel.

But it does require some access to the underside, so as to part fill the inverted piston with the alkaline chemical solution. 5mm would be sufficient, if a syringe and plastic tubing is used.

Inverted - so that when the piston crown is eaten through, the solution can run out into a catch tray, not into the crankcase!

The 'mild' approach is to use Trisodium Phosphate, available from hardware/paint shops as 'Tricleanium'. Say at 5% w/v; 5 grams per 100 mL of water.

BTW, half that concentration, i.e. 25 g/L, works well for cleaning range hood filters, but keep a close eye on them - it works rapidly on those.

Whereas the 'aggressive' approach is to use a Caustic Soda [Sodium Hydroxide] solution. I'd try this @ 5%, too. Add the soda pellets to cold water.

Safety: face/eye protection and rubber gloves are strongly advised, when preparing/using these chemicals.

Blumby - I'm heading off to Mildura for work for six months - I work in the public health system so I move around to a lot of different hospitals.

I get around quite a bit, and essentially I've been away from home for 10 years.

2007-2010 - Gold Coast
2011 - Sunshine Coast
2012 - Cairns
2013 - Mount Isa
2014 - Bundaberg - Hervey Bay and Maryborough
2015 - Port Douglas
2016 - Mildura
2017 - First 6 months home in Baulkham Hills - second six months Mildura.

And I've had that long without any of my tools or a workshop - its been terrible not having access to my toys.

But hopefully come February next year, there will be big changes - no more than about 4 weeks away at a time - hopefully.

Either that or time to change jobs.

Polybus

Why do they require you to uproot where they could simply hire another person that lives locally??
Not exactly family friendly.

Hired gun. Sometimes it's necessary to have an outsider in, to run a 'cold eyes review' program, and cut away the cruft that accumulates over time, in any organisation.
No.
But they're not alone in that - look at Oil & Gas industry offshore rotation rosters, particularly expat ones, as a prime example.
Most of those who work these jobs plan to do so only for a limited time, purely for the money - to accumulate significant capital that would take decades to build up, in a 'normal' job.

No nothing like that - I'm a doctor and they are terribly short of doctors in the bush. I like to go where I can do the most good - so I go bush - where-ever I can do good.

But onto more important matters.....

Progress with the Self Propelled - and more questions.

I have managed to get another stud out, meaning I have now got three out - so there is nothing stopping me (as far as I know) splitting the crank cases - so that is my next task.





I had given the cases a wollop with a rubber mallet, and I think I have broken the seal between the cases, I can see movement there when I move them by hand.

I can also see movement between the barrel and the crankcases, so that is fgreed up.

The piston, while it has moved a small amount, is still quite stuck in the bore.

So....

Where do I go from here? How do I get the crankcases apart? In the Victa manual I have it says whack one end of the crankshaft with a soft mallet - I've done that, but not a lot happened.

Am I being too gentle??

Polybus

Ahh; well bloody good on you, mate!

Always better to start gentle and ramp up as necessary, I feel. It's the bottom crankcase half that has to come off first here, as the remaining stud is in the top half. BTW, the points cam is a slip fit on the shaft, unless it too is rust-bound, so it needs to come off too.

First you need to get the blade disc boss off the shaft, and there's a bit of a trick to that. It's held on by matching tapers, i.e. male on the shaft and female in the boss.

Removal procedure is described in this past thread: https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=53044

The crankshaft pulley is on a parallel shaft section, keyed with a woodruff key. It may need a puller to get it off; if so the 'bearing puller' type is the best one to use here.

The workshop manual procedure is:

Which Victa manual do you have? Of my collection, Gregory's #103 has good coverage of the pre-1972 SP, but #424 is better.

You're making encouraging progress there. Good on you for helping in the bush's shortage of doctors. Looks like you are giving up a lot to do it so that makes for more kudos points.
This must make for a therapeutic hobby for you.

Right - went out and bought a couple of three armed pullers - I've been meaning to for ages - so this was the perfect reason for doing so. I've wished I had some on a number of occassions while working on my Stationary Engines.

Good/The right tools always make life so much easier, and less expensive in the end because I break less things

So now with my new pullers - Blade Boss and Pulley are off

Shall wait till tomorrow to see if that has helped me much or not.

Not entirely sure which version of the manual I have - I got it as a PDFand it doesn't have the cover pages.

Polybus

What sort of puller did you use successfully on the blade boss? I have a 125 that the two hammer method has failed to budge off and I really hate employing that method. Terrified already that my attempts so far have bent the crank shaft.

This is the one I used.

SuperCheap Auto - $50 - yes - its a hole in the pocket - but it worked for me.

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/ToolPro-Gear-Puller-3-Jaw-100mm/12540

As with everything I do - bathe the thing in (your favourite brand of) penetrating oil and give it time....ideally overnight.

Today I was just lucky - bathed it in penetrating oil - applied the puller, tensioned it up quite tight and when I went back about 3 hour later - applied more tension and it came straight off.

Sweet

Polybus

It may still be possible to work out which version it is, if it's one of the Gregory's publications.
https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/81688/