OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Restoring, Customising and Modifying Reel-Type Mowers SB 20" twin rail to single rail conversion.

Hi all

Picked up two SB 45's today, one 14" and the second is a 20".

The 20" machine has been converted to a solid deck. Not a bad job, would have done it slightly differently myself but whatever.

My question is, should I be looking at converting this back to dual rails (strengthened of course to prevent cracking) or leave it with the conversion even although it isn't original.

The fabrication side if any proposed repair isn't an issue, it's just my time.

Any advice would be appreciated.

hi it all depends if you happy with it like it is and it works ok and cut grass.
it worth more and easy to sell restored back to twin rail.
are you collector,fussy,like things oringal or do you just want mower to cut grass
its what you like

I like things original EXCEPT when there is a fundamental reason to modify.

I will probably restore and pass on this mower.

Can anyone give me the profile dimensions of a rail? (Width, height)?

rail with 2inch
rail side 1 1/4 inch
other rail side 3/8 inch

both rails same
3/8 inch small side rails face each other on inside machine when welded in

Thankyou freebird

I will post some pics soon of this sad looking mower. Will need a few parts to get her back to standard. Will it live again?

Hello All,

Can anyone help me with some photos and info on how the rails start to fail on 20" machines? I have never actually seen a broken one myself and I need to understand what the failure mode is before I have new rails bent up.

scott sorry no pictures but they all crack round engine mounting bolts as you getting new rails made I would just fold up a pair of rails small enough to fit inside your new rails about 7inches long and centre them under where motor sits and stich weld in.
re drill engine mounts ad should be fine
when welding in gussets don't fully weld just small stich weld from rail to rail weld both at same time to not make metal too hot as it can buckle

Hello both Scottm355 and freebird,


As the resident Moderator of the SB Model 45 area, I feel that it is time for me to step in here and clip some wings so to speak before things get too out of hand.

Here at the ODK we have a good reputation that we live by and as such the project Scott is suggesting here is not one to be taken on lightly, also one that we wouldn't endorse to freely discuss in the public domain and definitely wouldn't give advise on.

To freebird, "PLEASE" if you are going to suggest as you have then it would be best for you to support what you are saying with some images of what you are referring to, this way everyone can clearly see the standard of work that you are capable of doing, and also having the credentials to do so. If I may suggest that you could place some links etc. pertaining to other threads here on the ODK into your post supporting what you are suggesting.

We could all just suggest "weld this bit in here and that bit in there", thus Please do not just randomly put forward farmyard methods to members here on this site, as there is some rather serious engineering that needs to be addressed to ensure that this piece of machinery is going to be "totally safe" and not one day simply fall apart and throw pieces around which may well fatally injure some one, something I'd never want to see happen. For that reason we here will not endorse nor encourage owners to modify machines in any way that is not what the original manufacturer intended to have done to it.

To Scott, In the case of what you are suggesting of embarking on, may I suggest that it be just easier to find a 20 inch twin railer as there are still plenty of them out there that could be lovingly restored or even repaired to a satisfactory level that will not compromise the integrity of the original structure intended by the manufacturer of the machine.

These types of topics have over the years been quite regularly discussed here on the ODK Forums between the following members, Grumpy (no longer with us here and had formal engineering qualifications), Deejay (past administrator and Model 45 Moderator), and Bonnar_bloke (has now taken over DJ's Scott Bonnar role) so there's plenty of information if you use the search engine at the top of the page.

As suggested at the upper section of this post, we here have a "Duty of Care" that must be strictly adhered to as none of us wants a litigation case brought against us, and believe me it will happen one day, but due to our hard working Moderators and Administration team hopefully this will never happen here on this Forum.

I'll leave it there for now and trust everyone understands the issue being brought forward here.

Cheers,
BB.

Hi BB

Appreciate your input.

To be clear, I am not looking to "modify" my 20" mower as opposed to returning it to its original and intended design. My machine was a twin rail unit someone has modified presumably following a rail failure. These machines are getting harder and harder to find, if every mower that we come across requiring some work to return to its former glory was scrapped and replaced what will that do for the availability of this Australian Icon moving forward? On a smaller scale, these mowers can now be likened to an old Holden or Ford, things wear, break and get modified. When things are resonably young anything that's patched up really isn't tollorated as there are other options. Conversely, as things get older people relax their standards and expectations of old equipment accepting there will be some work to be done to wind back time.

My qualifications and experience in the engineering field make this an easy task and I am in no way willing to scrap this mower, I do however need help with original dimensions of the rails. Perhaps, this thread should be promoted as a way of educating people on a very sound any professional way of replacing a damaged rail rather then trying to patch it up? My repair will make use of jigs and templates to maintain original geometry in a way easy for anyone with some basic metal working skills to reproduce.

If your position is unchanged after reading my response I will of course respect your position and decision. A final thought, the forum pages on this site labeled "restoration", if not exactly for the type of project I am undertaking, then what for ? Paint and bearings ?

Hi Scott,

Unfortunately we have to protect ourselves from unscroupulous people that would like to take full avantage of a legal system that's gotten way out of control.

I personally don't have an issue with anyone who is attempting to do the job correctly and with the engineering qualifications to back it up, so from there there's no issue. What we do have an issue with is that if it's not addressed correctly it encourages certain members to just do the patch up thing as you've suggested might happen and for that we don't want the responsibility. I'm sure if it was your business that's on the line you'd want to ensure that the correct qualified people were taking on a task that was actively taking OH&S seriously.

Yes I do agree with you that there have been several posts over the years that have suggested many suspect methods, but in my defence these were all before my time and also not in my area that I moderate. Times have certainly changed since those earlier years and yes political correctness has certainly esscalated out of control, but like it or not that's what's changing in the world and no one seems to want to relax on that, thus we have to ensure that we are well protected.

On a more on topic note,

I'm convinced and more than happy for you to continue with the project here on a public level, but may we ask that you be so kind and upload plenty of photos along the way that clearly demonstrates how hard this project would be for the average backyard hobbyist. I'd hate to be encouraging under qualified people that may do some serious damage to either themselves or property.

BTW We have at one point touched rather indepth into the topic of converting Twin Railers to Solid Deck machines as a kit purchase and even to the point of it becoming a commercial venture, but this was dropped as it just wasn't financially viable and you'd be lucky to sell one kit every couple of months or so and again this would have to be done in China to be cost effective and as you've put so well, Australian stuff is disappearing, so yes we are caught between a rock and a hard place aren't we ?

Cheers,
BB.

hi bonnar bloke I will try to explain the the repair for you more simply sorry no pictures
after scott has made new rails its easy to simply fold up two smaller rails about 7inchis long
place these smaller rails inside the new replacement rails.
these smaller rails are to be stich welded in under were the motor sits.
these smaller rails work as gussets under where the motor sits and stops the common fault of cracks around the bolt holes as with the gussets you double the thickness of the rail where its prone to crack
metal thickness used for the new rails and smaller gusset rails should be 2.5mm to 3mm thick
welding on the gussets smaller rails should be stich welded that means weld 20mm miss 20mm weld 20mm and so forth till gusset rail is welded in.
best method is to weld a few stiches on one rail gusset then weld some stiches to the other rail gusset
that way you lesson the amount of heat when welding in the rail gussets as welds and metal shrink causing buckles bends in the rails and we don't want that
this is a repair I have done quite a few times over the years and we always checked the rails during servicing and never had a machine come back with any more cracks after the rails were double strengthed this way
I hope I have made the repair more clearer for you to understand I know a picture would better explain it for you but it really is a simple repair once your done it a few times

Hello Freebird,

The method you are referring to is explained rather well in the following thread and I am rather well conversed in it as you might gather otherwise I wouldn't be in the role here that I am here at the ODK.

Look at the following thread as it very well explains the common repair method "with photos" I might add.

Honestly I feel you need to supply photos to support what you are saying otherwise you have absolutely no credibility to other members and many wouldn't have a clue about what you are suggesting.

https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=64696

Your quote,
we always checked the rails during servicing and never had a machine come back with any more cracks after the rails were double strengthed this way

Anyway it sounds like you do this sort of thing for a job, is that correct ?

BB.

hi bonnar bloke
I am sorry I was only trying to help scott as no one had replied to him
may be we need the repair of the rails to be a special post like the ones member deejay has made then when the issue comes up again we can direct people straight to it
I did not know this repair had been covered before
I worked in the trade and am retired now but still like to tinker with mowers .
I guess it can be hard to explain to people how to do things when they don't have a clue about starter cords , replacing blades , points ect
I am like that with computers only found out that I have spell check, I wondered what all the red lines were for when I typed!!!!
I will leave to you to help scott further as its his post

still think we need a like button , just for great responces like your's BB .... and yeah . spellcheck is great but wish it would correct . not just tell us we are wrong

Hell Everyone,

Some photos of the offending mower for all to see. Originally would have had two rails but has been modified. Geometrically the mower is true so not a bad job. I don't like the fact that bar stock has been used for the front and back of the single rail with a plate welded on top of it.

Can anyone tell me what's going on with the throttle / governor / choke linkages on this 5hp Briggs? It looks like it is missing some bits it needs and has some that don't belong?

Any help available with the throttle setup team?

Hello Scott

This appears to have a replacement 5hp 13 Series.

The dial control is unusual but of Briggs make.
If its not working, you could simply put a throttle
cable and control on the handle.

Model, type and code would be needed for parts list
and operator manual.

Hope this helps.
------------------------
Jack

Hi CyberJack

The dial you see in the pictures is the on/off switch. Based on the way the cowling is pressed out it is almost certainly a factory fitted item.

A throttle cable is connected and functions ok.

My reasoning for thinking something isn't right is based on:
The fast / slow sticker on the side of the cowling with nothing else present. I have seen pictures of Briggs engines with this sticker and there seems to be a speed adjustment knob on a long rod in that area, assume it's for idle adjustment.

The choke linkages that seem to be doing nothing. I have another 3hp Briggs with similar choke linkages and it pulls the choke on automatically at a certain throttle position.

The model number is 132232 0144-01 84072307

Appreciate your help.

G'day Scott

I see...
Of course, that's a Briggs on/off switch. [I see that now.]

The answer must be in the Model, type and Code.
I'm guessing as you predict.

The original rod, though, probably controlled the full range-
idle, fast and choke. Maybe ...

Hopefully, we may get some clarification.

All very interesting.
------------------------------
Jack

G'day folks,
http://bsintek.basco.com/MDEXResultsPages/default.aspx for parts list and owner manual downloads for that engine - just enter '132232 0144-01' in the search window there.

It's not entirely clear how the throttle cable is connected, but I'd say it just needs adjusting, or maybe the choke operating rod needs to be 'unbent' a little. Try adjustment first.