OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Engines Questions on Other Engines Kirby Powered Outboard Motor

I was told this was a Kirby outboard,i have had it for years,and I can't identify it,have searched google and youtube,wondering if anyone on here can shed some light on it,thanks.

Hello ton66,

A warm welcome to these forums.
I think I can supply some information.
I will also contact another member who is an outboard expert.

It won't be a Kirby outboard, but could be a Kirby engine.
But that leg does look familiar - in that it is of Australian origin.
If it is, it is very possible it will be a Kirby-made engine.

The Kirby engine was, essentially, a licensed Johnson Iron Horse 2-stroke.
I have discussed that here:-

https://www.outdoorking-forum.com.au/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=59415#Post59415

The issue is, who made the outboard itself.
We'll just have to wait and see if a member has more information.
[the leg has quite distinctive flutes]

Hope this helps.
--------------------------------
JACK.

Thanks Jack,yes I read that information on your link yes if anyone has any way of helping identify this will be greatly appreciated,it's been a mystery since we had it,doesn't have any model or serial no's on it anywhere that I can see.

A clearer image of the engine may be helpful too.

It looks like American, like an Elgin (Sears)... If it is a Kirby, id expect to see some form of Id on the engine. It also has some Villiers aspects, but unlikely.

Maybe take the Cowl off, if Jacks Outboard contact is unsuccessful in identifying it.

Good luck, I'm sure you'll get an answer here

A very Interesting machine:)

This motor has cast handle on the back of the cowl also the cowl tapers back and is rounded at the back.

Yep,

I have no doubt of the engine's origin - a Iron Horse C12B.
The three lines on the starter housing are a dead give-away.

I need to say something about the tapered cowl though.

It was typical for small outboard manufacturers to change the cowling.
One reason was practical - a larger fuel tank; the other cosmetic.
The Kirby engine was mounted transverve on the mower frame.
Here the cowling tapers - streamlines - towards the back.

So, if we can establish it is an Australian outboard, there is a good
chance the engine is a Outboard Marine Iron Horse made here under licence.

If not of Australian origin, then it will be a simple Outboard Marine engine.



So' let's wait and see.
-------------------------------------
JACK.

Id love to restore this... love the choke filter style. Seemingly has an early AMAL carby. The engine breaks down completely too. The best thing about this as it appears complete, a major plus when you don't have to chase rare parts.

Will you be restoring this, when you work out its origins?

I would probably consider selling it to a genuine collector,but at the moment I am more interested to find out what it is first.

motor has external governor on top of flywheel and is a reedvalve motor,it also has a twist throttle Do you think it would probably be a 1957 GE A 3.Leg is purposely built for that particular motor with three bolt mounting and rectangular exhaust port.Do you think Kirby may have also under license outsourced the leg from Canada or had it manufactured here in Australia to tap into the outboard market like victor and Villiers.Any information would be greatly appreciated,thank you.

Hello again!

That's right: governor above the flywheel. Reed valve through crankcase.

Yes, in fact, my interest in the Kirby Hi-Torque is because it
was possibly our first governed 2 stroke to be used on an Australian lawnmower.
No one knew about the mower - No one knew about the engine.
It was original research that brought it to the light of day.

Now, I haven't heard anything from members.
I have found a close match to the outboard leg though:



To answer your specific questions: I have no evidence Kirby were involved in
outboard production. Also note that Victa were not involved in outboard manufacture
at this time. Villiers never were. However, Victa and Villiers engines were used by
manufacturers to make outboards in the late 1950s and 1960s.

That's all I have at the moment.
----------------------------------------
JACK.

Howdy guys,

Jack has asked me to chime in and assist with identifying this outboard.

To the best of my knowledge the only Australian outboard to use a 2hp Kirby High Torque mower engine was the 1958 Kingfisher.

Like so many other Australian "outboard manufacturers" of that era, Kingfisher assembled outboards using a variety of readily available components including generic legs, gearboxes and mower engines.

Kingfisher outboards were produced with Victa, Villiers, Kirby and Hurricane engines over the years.

There is also a small reference to the Kingfisher with 2hp Kirby High Torque in "The Old Outboard Book" by Peter Hunn (third edition)

Hope that helps.

Regards,
AusAnzani

Good work Aus....I guess The colour should have given it away.

Im not that familiar with the Kirby, having only owned an old masport many years back. Also my kingfisher had a Victa Rotomo engine. The cowl is not to dissimilar, and the colour is the same. I find it appealing in design, love the Kingfisher logo,and is my favourite vintage outboard.

Hello AusAnzani, Blue,& ton66

First, thanks to AusAnzani for assisting here. Really appreciated.
We now have an opinion from an expert in this area.
We also have Peter Hunn (author) lending support by the reference.
We have Blue adding the colour and styling evidence.

So ton66, nothing conclusive, but more likely than not.
Photographic or other visual evidence would be conclusive.

Hope this helps.
------------------------------
JACK.

Thanks. the more information the better chance of identifying the origin of this motor. I have over thirty antique outboards and this is the only one that I have had trouble identifying. I have a Kingfisher outboard with a Villiers engine and a victa outboard. Both of these engines have a similar lower leg the only differance is the top half of the leg. The motor I am trying to identifys leg is different. It is identical to the Firestone outboard leg one of your members found. The only differance being the flange at top of leg .Do you think it possible one of the outboard manufacturers here in Australia may have had some sort of deal with Firestone for the use of there legs. When I purchased this outboard from an elderly gent he told me he bought it new and that it was a Kirby outboard,and that's what,s led me on this goose chase. At least now we know exactly what the engine is just have to hope one of your members can solve the rest of the riddle,thank you.

Yes you and your members have been an incredible help and I really appreciate all the time and effort you and your members have put into this mystery. This outboard must be almost one of a kind because in thirteen years I have not been able to find another one the same. I usually only collect larger horsepower outboards so if any of your members are interested in this Kirby I would consider selling it to a Kirby collector, once again thanks for all your help it is great to talk to people with similar interests.

Hello ton66,

Thank you for recognising that contribution from members. Appreciated.

I would like to say something in answering your questions.
I am not an outboard expert, but what I have learnt from this is how similar
the historical work is between lawnmowers and outboards.

Here are another two pictures of American outboards.
Elgin on the left; West Bend on the right:-



My understanding is that West Bend made the Elgins as a store brand of Sears Roebuck.
Notice how both have similar legs to the Firestone. Was there a common supplier?

What this indicates to me is that your outboard probably had a leg of American manufacture.
The engine is known and was designed by an American company - Outboard Marine.
As AusAnzani has told us - Aussie 'manufacturers' made their machines, using available
suppliers. Everyone was jumping on board the emerging post-war leisure sector.

I personally feel this machine is of Australian origin however.
I say that because of the simplified cowling - as compared to overseas machines.

The best way forward is to try and find evidence of the Kingfisher with the Kirby.
Clearly this is a rare machine. That, of course, does not make it valuable.
The problem here is - there's not much of a story.

I do have one important question:
Is there any identification marks on the carburettor?
This could be an important clue.

Hope this helps.
-----------------------------------
JACK.

The only mark on the carburetor I can find is 1/16/36 I hope that helps thanks.

Hello ton66!

Not at all Those numbers mean nothing to me.
This carby presents as having a float & bowl, and a slide type venturi valve.
That to me is not the common configuration of the Iron Horses used on lawnmowers.

The regular engines would have governor linkage working on a butterfly valve.
Here, the governor seems to have to operate via ... a cable on a slide valve?

Just seems unusual.
-----------------------------------
JACK.

Yes it is a real brain teaser,every time you think you have gone one step forward you then take one back again.I was talking to a friend of mine who is regarded world wide as an expert on military firearms and has written quite a few books on the subject,sujested the lack of serial numbers may mean this motor possibly could have been a proto type and may have not gone to production.Do you think this could be the case since it seems to be a ghost engine, thanks.

Hello again guys.

As stated above, that leg was a generic unit used by several Australian outboard manufacturers. It's origins may well have been American, but there's nothing to support that at the moment.

To demonstrate the above, would like to point you to an Australian outboard advertised on eBay at the moment. Try searching ATOM Waterboy and you will see see the very same leg on that outboard. That Waterboy is powered by a Hurricane engine, adding further support to the comments I made above. Disregard the price, it's worth nothing like what is being asked. I purchased my last 2 for $70.00.

I also wanted to comment on the lack of serial numbers on the Kirby. This was not uncommon during that era. Fro example every single outboard and engine I have from Boundy Manufacturing (4 in total approx, 6 years apart based on design and ignition components)don't bear serial numbers.

It's been a while since I looked at some of my Hurricane engines, but I don't recall seeing serial numbers on any of those but will check when I get a chance.

Regards