Hi to ODK Members and Guests, Global moderator CyberJack has discovered this machine that has just been sold on eBay; it is enigmatic and an unusual find...an Scott Bonnar Craftsman... I have never come across one before, and we are most interested where it falls in the SB lineage.
We can from the pic, we can deduce this about it: It is a 17" machine, manufactured in Thebarton, it possesses the Series 2 Model 45 chassis, so that puts its date of manufacture after December 1975....and that the engine has been replaced with the new inner clutch half to suit the PTO of the Tecumseh.
It has the pram handles of the Lawn King and appears to have been re-painted at some stage...It may not have... It is a shame that we don't have a pic of the ID plate so we can see the model number. We know that "Craftsman" was an MSSA brand...so was the machine a store brand...I think so.
Does any member out there have any further info on this enigmatic machine? we would like to know a lot more... Here's the pic:
Please do not PM me asking for support. Please post your questions in the appropriate forums, as the replies it may receive may help all members, not just the individual member. Kindest Regards, Darryl
G'day folks; It hasn't been sold yet; the seller is running a bit of a 'Dutch auction' it seems - reducing the starting bid in each relisting, after starting high. It's located in Rouse Hill, NSW for anyone interested. Interestingly, the seller has an actual SB45 also for sale, also with 3hp Tecumseh engine.
As Deejay says, 'Craftsman' was the brand MSAA used on the 'house brand' mowers that were made for them. Initially by Australian manufacturers, but in the MSAA's latter years they seem to have had an agency arrangement with the US Sears Co., who have long owned that trademark for the US market.
The Tecumseh engines do look pretty correct for mid-1970's too, from what I recall of the units fitted to some of the Mobilco-imported Ariens tillers of that time.
It would also have been around that time, that James N. Kirby [and Villiers] discontinued local engine manufacture, following the Whitlam government's removal of import tariff protection on small engines.
We might as well have the two useful ad pics up in full resolution:
Cheers, Gadge
"ODK Mods can explain it to you, but they can't understand it for you..."
"Crazy can be medicated, ignorance can be educated - but there is no cure for stupid..."
I don't think that the engine is original also another give away is that there is no speed controller on the Handle Bar and only on the engine itself. All Scott Bonnar mowers had speed control at your hands and not down at the engine.
One thing I've just noticed and that is I think we can roughly time date this machine to around 1974 as it has the newer style ID plates but is running the two plates one on top of the other just like the last Brass ones did around that same era, so this would be a very early Series 2 Chassis.
There are a few things that don't add up and this makes it really hard to positively identify this machine without any reasonable doubt.
Hope this adds to the bigger picture
Cheers, BB
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
No craftsman rotary Im aware of Jack....Just curious, what are you trying to find out? This mower is identical to the one I scrapped and mine was a craftsman...it had one red alloy plate on the rear rail and one brass and a 2.5 briggs. It did not however have an SB sticker ..is the date wrong for an SB? Is this your confusion? Just curious is all:)
I might be a year and a couple of months out but that twin ID plate is certainly only on the very late single decks (from memory) and early twin railers (certainty). I too have seen a few "Craftsman's" on eBay from time to time, this is definitely a certainty. Again I feel that the later version Kirby is a ring in as it is too plasticised as they were still using the orange all metal units right up to and including the early twin railers (see photo below)
notice the twin ID plates on this one. So that most definitely says that the plastic Kirby is a ring in.
What's the thoughts ?
Cheers, BB
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
When Administrator Deejay said he was going to post this topic yesterday morning, he was doing so to see what memories would be jogged. This is a great result. It shows the power of collective work when challenges are presented.
From my perspective, this helps fill in the record in more than one way:-
In Sir Chook's picture it would appear that SB used 45 green for a branded mower. Second, SB removed thier own name from the catcher decal - something they did not do for the 33 or 45 Lawn Kings. I guess it would be nice to find out what the chaincase decal looked like on the 45 Craftsman.
Second, Sir Chook and Moderator Gadge's photos confirm BB's contention that the regular B&S engine was used. No special colour scheme for the 45 Craftsman.
Third, the power of corroboration becomes important. Both Blue and BB had direct experience with this model. They confirmed each other's story.
Fourth, Gadge has added to the MSAA file. That story should be told at some point, as evidence grows. MSAA seems to have been an effective body in combating the large discount stores...
All in all, I think Deejay will be very happy for a day's work here. I'm grateful, because I certainly was ignorant of the SB 45 Craftsman.
Hi Watson28711, and a warm welcome to the forum.It's great to have another SB Craftsman owner on board, as we all like to learn new things and tinker here. We would like to see some pics of your machine, as this will help the archives. Instructions for posting pics can be found HERE Any questions that you may have please post to this thread.
Once again, to OutdoorKing.
Please do not PM me asking for support. Please post your questions in the appropriate forums, as the replies it may receive may help all members, not just the individual member. Kindest Regards, Darryl
Hi All, I don't know if I am going to have any luck, but I would like to get hold of a manual (or copy of) for the Briggs 2.5HP motor & a users/owners manual for the craftsman. Does anyone know if these are available, Having looked on the Rover website, they require additional numbers to what are on the ID plate, but I don't seem to be able locate the additional numbers anywhere on the motor.(I must be either blind or they are well hidden).
Also if anyone can provide further info regarding year of manufacture etc. would also be appreciated - not that I need it particularly, but just to fill a curiosity.
Do you mean the engine number? If so you will find it on the engine cowl where the HT lead leaves the cowl assy(just above the small hump). You will need this number for ordering engine parts...It also holds the date of manufacture:) The section of numbers you need are possibly being covered by that small flat bar bracket on the cowl(hard to see in the images) but the numbers are close to this spot..Maybe check underneath:)
I'm confused at your instructions as the series of numbers are not usually near the HT lead hump, rather they are stamped into the edge of the engine air cowl that's tucked in alongside the carby area and not on top as you suggest.
Hi Watson,
The numbers will be in 3 sections and the ones that are closest to the top of the cowling will give us the date when the engine was made in the USA, from there it is around 4~6 months later that the actual machine was constructed and the engine mated up to it in the Thebarton Factory. The first numbers (lowest to the bottom of the engine) are the identity of the actual model engine it is.
As far as manuals are concerned you won't find anything on the Rover site at all as these early machines were made by Scott Bonnar prior to Rover ever having anything to do with SB machines and as such the later Briggs Engines are somewhat different from those early days.
The manual for this motor is available on this sites manual section.
Cheers, BB
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
Hi BB, Thanks for the Info but I had a look and can't find any numbers on the cowling at all, I even removed it so that I could check inside. I have made the right assumption in that the cowling is also the housing for the pull start? If so I think I may get someone else to check I must be looking straight at it.
It will be there, cos if it's not yours will be the only Briggs engine that doesn't have its numbering.
Looking at the side of the engine that has the 2.5 HP decal on it, just follow around to the left at the same height as the decal towards the carby and it will be there on that same section, yes that is the engine air cowling. You really have to look carefully as sometimes the paint is a tad thick and fills up the numbers, especially if its been repainted at some stage.
See how you go.
Cheers, BB
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
The numbers were exactly where you said they would be, Albeit it took a bit to uncover them, the cowling has some surface rust on it, so I had to use a piece of steel wool, Mineral Turps and a magnifying glass to be able to find them. Without following where you said they would be there was no possible way I would have found them.
Model No. 80102
Type. 0233-01
Code. 74071803
A Link to any manuals and details regarding year of manufacture etc. would be appreciated.
The engine was made on 18 July, 1974. Allowing shipping time to Australia, it was probably on a mower by the end of 1974.
It is 8 cubic inches displacement, or about 135 cc (the 8 cubic inch number is rounded). It is of the first design generation after Briggs adopted the modern model number system, it has a horizontal crankshaft and a Vacu-Jet carburetor, with plain main bearings, and a rewind starter.
Hi Watson, and Grumpy, Well this machine of yours, really puts the cats amongst the pigeons... It clearly shows, that is if Grumpy and I are correct in our assumptions,...that is, allowing roughly 6 months for delivery of the engine to erection of the machine in the SB factory at Thebarton. your machine is the earliest 17" twin rail Scott Bonnar we have seen on the forum, since my joining the forum in 2005....and it is a Scott Bonnar Model 45 "Craftsman".
To prove this theory, we need some 'provenance', that is, evidence that this machine was erected with this engine in place "as original fitment"...Have you spoken to the original owner re: the purchase date or perhaps a receipt....If so, this is a very important machine for the archives...and to all aficionados of the Scott Bonnar brand...it put the date of the introduction of the twin railers back by 12 months....or that the engine was not fitted for well over that period... It would be fabulous to know the exact provenance of your machine. Watson, many thanks for posting!
Please do not PM me asking for support. Please post your questions in the appropriate forums, as the replies it may receive may help all members, not just the individual member. Kindest Regards, Darryl
Hi Deejay, I will need to try & chase this up, I am not sure how successful I will be as I purchased it in about Oct - Nov 2014 off Gumtree. The Gentleman I purchased it from is local so I will try to contact him to see if he has any other details. I will let you know when and if I manage to contact him.
Hi Deejay & Grumpy I managed to get hold of the gentleman I purchased my SB from, unfortunately he was not the original owner of this craftsman. He has had it for the last 15-20 years and unfortunately did not get any paperwork when purchased from an elderly couple. The only info that I can really pass on is that he has not replaced any major components since he has had it, but obviously that does not provide the info required being that this is not proof that this was the original engine. It sounds like it is but unfortunately no documents to prove it.
Deejay is currently unable to reply and as such I will respond on his behalf as I know he's really keen on this topic and just so you don't think he is ignoring you.
Thank you for the follow up and sadly this won't give us any proof nor leads to continue with.
Once again on behalf of the ODK Team, thank you for your efforts in trying as sometimes you never know you could get lucky and correct a major fact within a myth. Something we love to do here.
Cheers, BB.
I live a 24 Hour lifestyle, but every now and again I seem to fall asleep, well at least that's what my wife tells me.
I picked this machine up today, looks very original to me ( chain case and deflector plate have been re painted or replaced as well as engine side of cutter clutch). Engine dates as 75. Not sure if this ads any further information to the topic.