OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Engines Questions On Briggs & Stratton Engines B&S Engine Oil

Hi,

Not sure if this is the right place for this, so mods please shift if not.

I have a Greenfield E2000 with a 20hp Vanguard V twin engine.

Do others use car engine oil in their ride on, if so what grade can I use, the reason I ask is that the B&S oils are much dearer and the likes of Repco, Sup Cheap ect often have specials on 5L oils which mean I can change it more often.

Regards
Buckets

Hi Buckets, welcome to Outdoorking.

So far as oil is concerned, I use what the engine manufacturer says I should use: not his brand of course, but the same specification. For your Vanguard, Briggs say use an SAE30 oil, rated for automotive service SJ or a later specification than SJ. You can buy the stuff in quite a lot of automotive shops, but it will probably cost a bit more than the multigrade that they mostly sell. Do not use multigrade oil, or you'll use a lot of it, in the hot Australian climate. Straight SAE30 has been the Briggs specification for engine oil for many years, and they are correct, multigrade oils are consumed quickly in their engines.

Thanks Grumby,

will this do the trick, also is SG/CD later than SJ

http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/on...Oil-SAE30-2-5-Litre.aspx?pid=20082#Cross

Regards
Buckets

Hi Buckets, and a warm welcome to the forum. It's nice to have you aboard, as we all like to learn new things and tinker here!

Have fun navigating around the site, and remember, if you have any questions, don't be afraid to ask.
Once again, to OutdoorKing.

Yes, that is the right stuff Buckets.

many thanks

My "sixpence" is that you buy the same stuff as you pictured, BUT wait until it is on special for the 5 litre size. Like at the moment it is on special. Also, join their membership thingo and you will save more! I use a lot of this gear and are saving heaps. Unfortunately I don't qualify for wholesale sales or I would buy it direct. regards Chris.

I missed one of your questions, Buckets. SJ is a later specification than the SG that Penrite produces. The second letter progresses in alphabetical order. It seems Penrite is not keeping up with the newest specifications from the American Petroleum Institute. I do not think this is anything you need to be concerned about at present: I think SG was probably current when the Vanguard engine was introduced in 1987, and I do not know of the engine having been redesigned since.

Thanks Christo, that's the reason for asking as I am a SCheap Auto member & noticed it was on special.

regards
Buckets

Thanks for the welcome Deejay & thanks grumpy for the clarification.

Hi Buckets,
From research SG is not only acceptable but better for these types of engines as they have higher values of anti-wear additives, such as phosphorus and zinc.

My understanding is one of the reasons oil manufactures change oil components is to keep up with anti-pollution changes such as catalytic converters.
During the combustion process phosphorus (and/or zinc) going through a cat convertor produces a poison.

So latter API specifications S-J,L,M,N shouldn't be regarded as better oils in this application, just different.

I also believe multigrades, with the added polymers which break down into sludge and not as good as singe viscosity oils in our application.
Though a car/truck needs multigrade I believe keeping the spread as close as your climatic conditions allow, i.e. use 20W-40 rather than 15W-50, but that's a whole different discussion.

Penrite SAE 30 and B&S SAE 30 and their equivalents are the best for small engines IMHO.

BTW also buying 5lt Penrite 30 at supers#!+ while on special

The penrite 30 is bery good oil and is all I have used on any briggs engine for years, good value for money too, generally a 5l bottle is less than $40, the briggs and stratton branded oil found in mower shops im dubuous of, sure it might be okay, but I have been told it is recycled oil, funnily enough the seal on the bottle is the same as the home brand car oil at woolworths, which I have confirmed to be re-refined oil.

Pretty much on the money there grumpy. SG was the current automotive OEM spec from 1989-93, SJ was 1998-2000.

To elaborate a little on what Bushie has said:
For small engine service, a later API spec is not necessarily an advantage. The SH and later specs have restrictions on the allowable Phosphorus level, as it isn't good for vehicle catalytic converters. It doesn't 'produce a poison', but rather inactivates the metallic catalyst coating, a phenomenon known as 'catalyst poisoning'.

But the most cost-effective anti-wear additive for engine oils is a class of chemical compounds collectively known as 'ZDDP's', which contain both Zinc and Phosphorus. So this would be a good reason for Penrite to stay with the earlier spec, to keep the anti-wear additive levels up.

The problem with multigrades in these engines is not sludge formation, but rather that the 'viscosity index improver' additives, which are long chain polymer molecules, can get sheared into shorter bits, which don't work nearly as well. Much more so than in multicylinder engines. So in service, the oil will tend to gradually revert to the lower end of its viscosity range [the one with the 'W' suffix], and more will get burnt.

Thus a straight SAE30 is still the go, for these engines.

FWIW, you can set up e-mail alerts through the Supercheap website, to let you know when specific products go on special.

Many thanks for the reply's everyone.

Penrite it is.

Hi MrMckay et al.

When I tried to research B&S oil I couldn't find its properties anywhere. It's prolly just re-branded and could well be made from partial recycled oil, which some say is as good as the dirty, black stuff they get out of the ground. Haven't really looked into it.
The Caltex SAE 30 looked really good, (zinc and phosphorus wise) but as petrol stations are mostly convenience stores now my local(ish) garage didn't stock it.
So availability was another reason to go with Penrite (and the specials).

Gadge, You explained catalyst poisoning well. Thanks.
Regarding multigrade; I understand "long chain polymer molecules, can get sheared into shorter bits" and then the oil reverts to the W side, but have also read: "The polymer additives do break down from thermal and mechanical degradation as the oil ages and wears out. This results in increasing the carbon build-up (sludge)." naturally go's on with why timely oil changes are important.
What are your thoughts on this?

There are long-established arguments for recycling motor oil. The underlying theory is that natural oil consists of a collection of molecules of varying nature and quality. Service in an engine causes a kind of Darwinian "survival of the fittest", so by the time the oil is changed, many of the weakest have broken down, whether due to time/temperature, or pressure. Hence if the reclaimed oil were processed as well as virgin oil is, then had the same additives provided, it would be the better of the two products. Essentially, this is rather similar to the arguments for synthetic oil: it is made up of molecules all formed under similar, chosen conditions, and therefore they should be more uniform and suited to their task.

Historically the problem has been that reclaimed oil was not processed nearly as well as virgin oil, and did not receive the same additives.

Hi Grumpy.

I really like this part; "causes a kind of Darwinian "survival of the fittest", so by the time the oil is changed, many of the weakest have broken down, whether due to time/temperature, or pressure. Hence if the reclaimed oil were processed as well as virgin oil is, then had the same additives provided, it would be the better of the two products."

Hopefully one day reclaimed oil will get the processes and additives it deserves.

On another note Grumpy, after months of deliberation and research I bought a Greenfield Deluxe Fastcut Kawasaki V21.5/34, as seen in my new avatar. I must say reading archives from here helped in my decision.
I kind of remember you say something about taking some measurements, of the clutch plates I think. I have so many 'bookmarks' from ODK, I must start to categorize them.

Back to the oil thread.
I suppose it should be also mentioned that below zero degrees Celsius ambient a multigrade like 10W-30 be used. I don't think many would mow in zero or below weather, but the thread also implies small engines, like generators pumps etc.
I am considering SAE 40 for extremely hot ambient as we can have in Queensland summers and change back to 30 in winter.
Some advocate SAE30 go's to 35C, others 40, and SAE40 from 20 to 40+. Hopefully Gadge and others will comment on this too.

Briggs' chart shows SAE30 from 4C to the top of the chart at 49C. However I think the use of SAE40 in really hot conditions would probably reduce oil consumption without causing problems. The issue Briggs seem to be concerned about, is difficulty spinning the engine fast enough to start it, in cold weather. You can't rely on the operator to change oil seasonally, so they would be in danger of getting customer complaints in winter if they authorised SAE40.

Many years ago (until the very early 1980s) Holden used to fill their 6 cylinder engines with DTE Light oil in the plant, as a running-in oil, and instructed the customer to have it changed as part of the initial 1,000 mile service. They were forced to abandon the practice because of the number of cars that were first serviced at 10,000 miles, and still had the DTE Light in them.

We all have to recognise that the customer we can get is the customer we want, and we'd better make it easy for him or her to get good results.

Sludge formation can occur with monograde oils too; it's not particularly influenced by the presence of viscosity improvers. It's actually due to oxidised components of the oil, and combustion by-products, forming small [initially non-filterable size, i.e. <30 micron] particles.

Modern engine oils handle this by using detergent/dispersant additives, to keep the particles suspended in the oil, so that they are removed when the oil is drained. Many viscosity improvers are dual-function, i.e. they have dispersant properties too.

It's these particles that become sludge, when the dispersancy capacity of the oil is exhausted, and they start to stick to surfaces inside the engine. This can be easily avoided, simply by changing the oil before this point is reached. Here's an awful example.

For engines up to smaller truck size, the most cost-effective way to manage this, is to change the oil on an distance/hours of service or elapsed time basis.

For heavy truck engines and larger, the cost of an oil change makes it economic to have the oil tested periodically, to determine its fitness for further service, and schedule changes accordingly. Sometimes the tests are used to determine additive replenishment requirements too, if the volume of oil is large enough to make this economic. This is the main reason why the heavy equipment majors [Caterpillar, Komatsu etc.] offer an oil testing service to their customers, usually run in-house, or even worksite-based. Other tests that are run routinely provide early warning of abnormal wear and oil contamination [dirt/coolant/fuel/soot], as a bonus.

Back to the B&S oil, the MSDS for it on the Victa website says that it's manufactured by Valvoline, for the Oz market. The only spec mentioned on the label is API SG/CD.

I'd say that Penrite would be a bit better product, as they do a good job on lubes for these small-volume market niches, as a rule.
And as you say, it's easy to get from the auto parts chains, at a reasonable price.

Agreed, but only advisable if oil consumption has increased enough to be a problem. Wouldn't go higher than SAE40, even then. Initial lubrication on startup can suffer from the use of a heavier oil, in a splash-lubrication engine. And that's when a lot of the wear occurs.
Multigrade can be one solution to the spin speed issue. At the cost of increased consumption, as we know.