OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Restoring, Customising and Modifying Engines Magneto Repairs on Villiers 412 required ?

I prefer to use a single thickness of abrasive paper, and turn it over after I've done one contact surface. Doubling it increases the angle between the two contact surfaces after the job is done. You might try measuring the resistance between the points when they are closed: it should be a very small fraction of an Ohm.

Replacing the points, unless they are rather beaten-up, is a considerable expense that should be unnecessary IMO. Once they meet squarely and have clean surfaces, the next concern is the condenser. In my experience condensers fail far more often than coils, and of course are much cheaper to replace.

Just one point: are you really sure the points open just as the magnet is close to departing from the coil?

Hi Grumpy,

I will use a single piece and do it the way you've suggested. I took particular notice of the position of the magnets when doing the timing and noticed that they were just on the outgoing position when the points were opening. I must admit that I'm starting to suspect the condenser more than anything else but finding the exact right one to fit is going to be a bit of an achievement I feel. The one I have is still the original one I'd say as it has the name Villiers embossed on it as do the points assembly.

Hopefully I'll get a chance to look at it today as I have another electrical issue to solve with my Hilux which is really odd as all the wiring is still as per original and its not a vehicle that's been mucked around with. This certainly makes it easier to find faults when you don't have to second guess what someone else may have done in the past.

Cheers,
BB.

I agree that keeping machines in original condition makes it easier to fix them years later after you've forgotten the history, BB. The condensers tend to be mostly (not all) about the same capacitance, and they all have the same voltage rating. Where they differ is in mechanical details that allow them to be mounted neatly and reliably.

(I can remember having an uncomfortable trip home from the bush after a late night rabbit-spotlighting trip once, in an old Austin A30. Joe Lucas' ignition condenser had broken its mounting tab and rattled around in his crummy distributor, so the engine only fired when the metal can around the condenser happened to be momentarily in contact with the distributor housing. I also had a Cortina that would idle but cut out as soon as you touched the throttle. The grounding wire from the distributor's points mounting plate to the distributor housing had broken: it moved when the intake manifold vacuum changed, due to the vacuum advance mechanism, and the broken wire only made contact when it had maximum vacuum advance. Gee we had fun in the days of Lucas stuff. Getting from A to B and back was always an adventure, even on the good days when the headlights didn't go out or the distributor get wet. Lucas should have been running a fun park instead of an automotive electrical business - that's where his talent was.)

Getting back to the point, however, if you have any "known good" ignition condenser that can be temporarily mounted and connected, you can see whether your Villiers then suddenly has spark. If it does, you can begin the lengthier process of getting one that fits properly.

Well I've finally had a chance to put the Villiers back together again and attempted to start it and nothing. I let it sit for about 5 hours and was walking past the machine and decided to crank the handle and see what happened........................well surprise surprise and only half half a crank it fired up and ran well for about 30 seconds and then it just died as if it ran out of fuel. Yes the fuel tap is open. I've since had another crack at it and it won't start. My guess is that it has a blocked jet as I haven't actually stripped the carby down, only externally cleaned it and the oil bath air cleaner side of things. It's about the only thing I can think of and it makes logical sense to me. I'm going to open up the carby and fully clean it and blow out all the jets and air holes etc., then give it another shot. all things going well it sounds like a strong non smoking engine that will serve the Supercut well.

Once I have it running like it should I shall make a video of it starting and running for all the helpful people to see as many of you have contributed with help and suggestions which has spurred me on to get the Villiers up and make this restoration a good example of the Scott Bonnar history as that's what this project is all about to me.

Cheers,
BB.

The Plot thickens with me stripping the carby down and finding it to be spotlessly clean inside. All parts were nevertheless removed blown out and reassembled. I have now noticed that again I have no spark as I've cranked the engine over with one hand while touching the top of the plug with no electrical pulses what so ever. So it looks like I'm going to source another condenser from John at Rustic Spares and see what prevails.

I have recently been given a 415 HOV-2 Villiers overhead valve motor which has exactly the same magneto / flywheel set up and exactly the same problem of no spark at all. I'll have to say I'm not too sure if the OHV set up makes the 415 a better engine, but regardless the 412-H2 is the one that will be the weapon of choice as it's the original engine and must remain as part of the Scott Bonnar heritage.

Cheers,
BB

Hi BB,

I really admire your perseverance at trying to preserve this piece of Scott Bonnar history.
I must admit when I possessed the same model Supercut (Petrol) I had electrical probs that I finally solved by replacing the coil, condenser and points, plus the plug lead with NOS parts, as I had no way of testing those components at that time. That fixed the prob once and for all, but I often wonder which part was the main cause.

My best wishes for a good result mate,

Hi Darryl,

I guess as I've restored two concourse HG Premiers in the original restored category some years ago now that mindset has been applied to every thing that I have a go at.
There's something about a Supercut and the design that Sid put into it which just makes me want to produce the best known surviving example. I guess as the Supercut has never been a favourite amongst restorers (and I totally understand why) spurs me on even more.
I'm in the process of getting some components from "Voljon" and we'll see how things travel after that.

Again thanks for you words of encouragement and all the help and knowledge you always provide as I know the Supercut is one of your favourites too.

Cheers,
BB

BB, the 30-seconds-then-quit outcome could just as easily have been a spark failure as a carburetion one, though after a very long period of disuse I would start with the carburetor. Unfortunately I tend to think of intermittent spark failure as more often a coil problem than a condenser one: I'm used to condensers causing hard starting and erratic running, or just no start at all and a very dull red spark if any. There does seem to be quite a possibility that you will be up for a replacement coil.

A long time ago I had a very elaborate machine on which you could mount coil, points and condenser, adjust dwell, and run the whole system up from idle speed to warp speed while observing the spark visually as well as with instruments. Unfortunately it was both heavy and bulky, and after not using it for 10 years, I dumped the whole thing on the nature strip. The surprising part was nobody grabbed it: I finished up putting it in a skip.

Hi Grumpy,

Yes I can see exactly where you are coming from and yes it does seem very much of a merry go round syndrome. I have pretty much ruled out Carby issues as it's just so clean and perfect inside the B.10.2 and especially after doing a clean out with just about nothing foreign to be found put the issue right back to electrical. If a replacement coil was available then I would simply do that but there's nothing out there to be had so eventually I might have to find someone that could do a coil refurbishment. I really just want to keep the Villiers 412 H2 that's originally fitted on the machine. Yes I can hear the rumblings saying, put a Honda on it and happy days, but that's not what this project is all about for me.

I made a promise to the previous owner that I would restore it and supply her pictures of it as the family has photos of her and her dad with the machine when she was a little tacker and I guess I want to honour that promise along with preserving one of Sid's best made machines. Call me crazy but it's as simple as that I guess.


Cheers,
BB.

I tend to agree on the coil pack being the main culprit. Youve done all your timing settings and checks so go backwards now. Tip of lead to the coil and eliminate the most basic thing first. I just finished of a villiers mk2 midg. Rebuilt the points assy completely with new insulators as it was grounding (common problem). Removed coil mounts and cleaned all the rust and crap then buffed the coil poles to shine and reassemble. Recheck spark still crappy and intermittent. Switched coil, same issue. Ok so I went to the ht lead spring pin. Seems ok from outside. Pull the pin, unscrew the spring from the ht lead, problem found. The screw had worn the lrad end and mashed the wire and basically slipped down the side of the lead touching insulator only. Simple fix cut the lead flush centred the wires with a spike and re centred the screw...bang beautuful blue spark....anyways not necessarily the same system but worth checking if the coil and points check out ok. And btw I approach everything the same way as I do my HT also, and the 7 before it:)

Hi BB,

Having had a bit of experience with Villiers engines and coils, the coils do tend to be the main culprit of "failure to proceed". I have not had a lot of luck procuring replacements in Australia but there are some suppliers in England that do have replacement ignition parts. Meetens, Villiers Services and Villiers Parts are the ones that I can think of immediately. Whilst I do not endorse any particular supplier, to give you an idea of what is available have a look at:

http://www.villiersparts.co.uk/ignition.html

I know that the three companies listed are happy to send items to Australia and that it pays to get a quote for parts from each of them as prices vary from place to place.

Hope that this is of assistance in your quest for parts.

Regards,

Sir Chook

Hi Sir Chook,

Thanks for that, I must admit that Villiers info is pretty thin on the ground as they haven't been produced in Australia for a long time and thus many have found their way to scrap years ago. Every now and again I'll fall across one that's being tossed out and I'll grab it but then the main parts of the engine are in superb condition with mainly the ancillary parts being the issue and that's where the problems begin with spares being so wildly priced making them a non viable option. As an engine they were built very solid indeed but the bolt on stuff is the opposite.

I'm still going to investigate the main coil I have and see if it's not the HT lead that's giving me grief at the coil connection point as they can be unscrewed and replaced, but finding the thin HT lead is becoming harder nowadays with most of it being the thicker variety. I all else fails I shall have to use the suppliers you've suggested so as to get the main 412 H2 engine going reliably. I see that an Electronic version of the magneto assembly is available now for a whopping 50 pounds, which when shipped equates to over $100. Ouch !

Once again thank you for your info as it's greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
BB

Again thanks HT

This is definitely the next plan of attack before purchasing anything from overseas as that's going to hurt big time. I'll post how I go but as I'm about to move house within two weeks I won't be able to spend any time on it now.

Cheers,
BB

Hi BB, please check your PM's mate.

Done !

Cheers,
BB

Reading this old post reminded me that riders of British motorcycles say 'Lucas' stands for "leaves us cold and stranded".

I'm told there was a bumper sticker seen on a Jaguar in the US about 25 years ago:
"Why do the British drink warm beer? Because they have Lucas refrigerators."

Ahhhh...Lucas....The prince of darkness...

Hi. I found this old post and was wondering what the final solution was? I’m working on a Villiers C25 with this exact ignition system. I have replaced (new) the coil, condenser and points but still only have spark at high rpm’s. Which makes it extremely hard to start. I have ordered a new length of copper core HT lead and another new plug but at the moment it’s got me stumped as to what is going on.

Hi Jeremy,

It ended up being the High Tension lead that was the issue.

The engine in question ended up being sold just recently to another member on here and I'm lead to believe that he did the work and replaced the lead and got it up and going reliably.

Cheers,
BB.

Thanks mate. I’ve got a new length of copper core lead coming and hoping that will sort the issue. Just wanted to know if I should be looking for something else. Thanks! 👍👍

Generally those 412 style engines suffer more so from coil / lead issues. Must admit not the best set up regarding points etc. on these engines.

Thanks. I’m looking at buying an electronic kit for it from Villiers parts in the UK. Hopefully that will sort it out and no issues down the track. I’m restoring a Stothert and Pitt, Vibroll. Pedestrian, cricket pitch etc vibrating roller.

Hi ODK Members,

I have had success removing the points and condenser and fitting a Victa type module, works brilliantly.

Hello ODK Members,

I have attached some pics viewing.

Paul

Brilliant, Paul, I sort of thought that might work but now we know. Much easier than trying to get points and condenser all working together.
So Jeremy, $20 for a new module or scavenge one from an old Victa Powertorque