OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Engines Questions On Rover Engines rover wayfarer wont start

engine stopped, so i put in new plug, added fuel and oil, now wont start, will start with engine start spray for a few turns, checked fuel line both ways and did not seem blocked. did notice that the bell crank and carby section did not return, as in spring back, once throttle was returned. not sure if a spring is missing
thanks

Hi georgex, and a warm welcome to the forum.
Its nice to have you aboard, as we all like to learn new things and tinker here.

In order for us to be able to help you, we need to know the model of your engine....If it is a Briggs and Stratton, we also need the Model, Type and Code numbers that are stamped into the metal air cowling.

We will also need photos of the machine and in particular of the governor spring area, to see if all is OK there.
Instructions for uploading pics can be found HERE
Once again, georgex, to OutdoorKing.

QUANTUM xm briggs and stratton , 12f802-1975-b1 03080756
i

Your engine was made on 7 August, 2003. I have no listing for a Plant 56, which may mean your engine was a very early specimen from the Chongqing plant. If so, that would not be a good thing.

Here is the Illustrated Parts List for your engine:
http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocumentDisplay/18hruJXHnfBhU7y.pdf

Here is the Operator's Manual:
http://bsintek.basco.com/BriggsDocumentDisplay/29lpAFKT9FzXFix2.pdf

Here is the illustration from the workshop manual showing your governor:


It looks to me as if your governor spring is missing.

great you've got the correct details
the spring is there, you can just see the straight part(209), so when you pull on the throttle it all moves forward, its when you return it that they don't move back, what makes it return back?
on a similar post it mentioned a fault in the electrical could cause this symptom
thanks

I'm unclear on what electrical fault could cause a governor problem, but let's stick to the mission. Remember, the speed control (the only control available to the engine's operator, apart from the ignition cut-out and choke) is not a throttle control, it simply sets the governor preload. The throttle butterfly is then controlled by the governor inside the crankcase. When the speed control is set to maximum with the engine not running, the throttle butterfly should be pulled wide open by the governor spring. When the speed control is set to minimum with the engine not running, the throttle butterfly will not be closed, because the engine is not operating above the governed speed (which would be about 1700 rpm). When the engine runs, the governor adjusts the throttle butterfly's position to achieve and then maintain the speed called up by the speed control. So, if your throttle butterfly moves to the closed position when you set the speed control to stop, something is seriously wrong with the governor.

We need more information as to what you think is wrong with the governor's operation. Pictures showing the linkage from a bit further away so we can see the spring, at both full speed and minimum speed, might clarify your concern.

i have include 3 photos, one with closed then full,
then returned where the spring is back to its position but the butterfly remains the same .
if the crank is used to return then that explains why it doesnt go back,
any idea what could be causing it not to run
thanks

My main concern with the governor set-up is that the mechanical governor can only pull the throttle toward closed, it can't push it toward open. The only force that opens the throttle comes from the governor spring. In the first picture the throttle butterfly is completely closed to the point where it hits the idle speed adjusting screw if it has one. In this case it does not seem to have one, but neither does it have the alternative: a small second governor spring to control the idle speed. Briggs calls that "governed idle", and if you look at Figure 98 from the manual which I posted in this thread, you will see that your engine would normally have this second spring. The second spring holds the throttle slightly open unless the governor pushes it further toward closed.

When the speed control is set to maximum, the main governor spring should be slightly stretched. If it isn't stretched at all, it may be the wrong spring, or the speed control lever may not be moving as far as it should toward high speed. I'm not sure at this point whether it is stretched in your second picture.

We need to see it from a bit further away, so that the speed control lever is visible, to the right of those pictures, where the Bowden cable attaches to it. Let's also see the whole spring and both of the attachments at its ends, so we can be sure whether the controlled idle speed spring is missing.

The idle spring does not account for the engine not starting, if you are going about the start-up the correct way. Briggs engines are always started with the speed control set at maximum. This means the throttle butterfly is always wide open when the engine is being started. However a missing idle spring is likely to result in the engine refusing to idle - it may just stop when you put the speed control to minimum.

the spring is slightly stretched, as you should be able to see in these photos, and when it returns there is nothing to pull it back so the spring has slack

At this point I don't understand how your engine can idle without either an adjustable idle speed screw, or a second governor spring such as the one shown in Figure 98. However that will not be the reason it won't start, so let's disregard it for now.

Does your engine have an automatic choke, a primer system, or a manual choke? All three were available on that model. Please describe your procedure for starting the engine, including how you set the controls.

normally i would press the priming bulb then pull the cord, and it would start most of the time straight away. now i spray some start fuild into the carby and then pull the cord, it would then start for a second then stop.
there is no stop valve for the fuel or any choke on the carby or throttle
did you imply there is a second spring to pull it back, either near the butterfly or somewhere else

Please confirm that you only try to start Briggs engines with the speed control set to maximum. If you don't, you are unlikely to get them to start. The start fluid is a bad idea, not only because it is fiddly and costs money, but more importantly because that stuff is mostly ether, which is very bad for the engine. The Operator's Manual I referred you to earlier in this thread says you should press the primer full-stroke 3 times before cold-starting the engine. If it has run out of fuel during the previous run, it will take more than 3 strokes of the primer bulb to get the primer system working. You can feel on the bulb whether it is pumping fuel or not.

As I read Figure 98, your engine should have a shorter, second spring running from a fixed point on the engine to the throttle butterfly. That would ensure the throttle is partly open when the engine is stopped, and more importantly it would control the idle speed and keep the engine from stalling at idle.

The primer on these works different to the primer on one with the carby over the fuel tank, it works on air pressure going into the float bowl and pushing fuel out of it into the carb throat.

If you push the primer can you see a small jet of fuel appear in the throat of the carb? if not I would suggest removing the bowl (1/2" bolt) and checking for dirt and debris, also to make sure fuel is in the bowl.

i do get fuel going into the carby, but its probably a good idea to clean as i have now pulled it apart.
as for the return spring for the carby butterfly i cant seem to find a fixing point on the cam, my whipper snipper has a axial spring to help return pressure, but i cant see one on top. the exploded diagram only has two versions of the throttle/forward spring, unless its in shown another section?

You seem to be describing a speed control cable return spring, georgex. That has nothing to do with a governor. If a particular machine has a cable return spring, it is because the final product manufacturer realised that his low-efficiency cable required a spring to keep it from buckling when the cable inner is pushing rather than pulling.

I'll go through my reasons for thinking there may be a missing governor spring.

First, let's look at your carburetor. Here is what the workshop manual says about it:



In the first illustration, you'll see that your engine has a Walbro LMS carburetor. You'll also see that the specific version that has a fixed main jet with dry bulb primer (which yours has) is illustrated in Figure 97. If you look at Figure 97, you'll see that Item 2 is the idle speed adjustment screw. Your engine is later than the workshop manual's publication date, and it does not have either an idle speed adjustment screw, or an idle mixture adjustment. So how is the idle speed controlled? The only alternative to an adjustable stop on the throttle butterfly bell crank, is governed idle. Governed idle uses a second governor spring that operates only at idle. The illustration for your engine in the same workshop manual shows it having governed idle: see the second governor spring in the red circle:


As you can see, the governed idle spring runs from the throttle butterfly bell crank at one end. You cannot see the anchor point for the other end, but it will be a thin pressed steel bracket mounted on the engine's cylinder block. The idle speed is adjusted by bending this bracket.

I am yet to see an "idle" spring on any of these, they are so thin they snap and have gone awol many years ago. They do idle quite well, as you can see even in the stop position the spring still has a minor amount of tension on it. For some reason I am thinking there is a small hole in the butterfly as well to help with air entry.

Thanks Joe, it looks as if there may have been a fair amount of trial and error in the design. The parts list does not show an idle spring, but the workshop manual does, so it seems like something odd has happened along the way to the Briggs design process. If it will idle without the spring, it is obviously not anything to worry about. That may have been the line of thinking that Briggs adopted.

In any case it is clearly not the problem in this engine: the governor spring opens the throttle when the speed control is in the start (maximum speed) position, and that is all we are concerned about at the moment. I'm a bit mystified by what seem to be conflicting reports, though. When ether is sprayed into the carburetor intake, it starts. When petrol is squirted into the same place by the primer, it doesn't. That outcome appears to be impossible, so there is most likely some other factor here we don't know about yet.

FOUND THE PROBLEM
put it all back together, .. and it started and ran?
put the catcher on and cut about 50m grass and then it stopped again.
same problems as before would not start unless i sprayed starter, and it would not run.
the only thing i could think of was fuel, so i emptied it into a clear container.. and a after a minute or so there it was, an inch of clear fluid at the bottom, must have picked up a batch of bad fuel.
emptied the good stuff back in and it started all ok
will now have to check the rest of the can
thanks for all your help guys

Hi georgex,

How good is it when you solve the problem....contaminated fuel...it is always the last thing one thinks of when diagnosing a problem with outdoor power equipment, but will be in the 'front of mind' in future.
Thanks for letting us know...I will leave this thread open, as I am sure grumpy will have a reply..

There is still some mystery here georgex. If the primer squirted the full amount of petrol for all three squirts of the bulb before you tried to start it, it should have fired for several seconds, unless the primer was squirting a lot of water in that petrol - so much that the water separated during the priming process, and shorted out the spark plug. To me it seems very difficult to mistake fuel that is as contaminated as this would require, for petrol when you poured it into the tank.

You now need to run it for quite a while on clean fuel before you store the mower. I bought a line trimmer a few days ago (a 30 year old Kioritz Echo straight shaft). The previous owner had found it wouldn't start after a couple of years laying in his shed, so he pulled the starter continuously for ten minutes until it did start. Then he ran if for a while and stopped it. It wouldn't start again after that so he left it in the shed for another six months then sold it - to me. By then the water from the tank that had found its way through the carburetor had rusted and stuck the rings. There was plenty of water in the fuel filter, which was why it was so hard to start (it forms a film across the filter), and water in the carburetor of course. He obtained a diagnosis from an expert, who told him it needed a carburetor kit and was otherwise OK. I think that expert must have looked at it from quite a distance, because the engine would not rotate by pulling the starter.

So, at this point your engine probably has water in all the wrong places. You will need to run it until it evaporates all the odd drops of water from obscure places like the valve chest and breather, then change the oil, or you might find a nasty surprise next time you try to use it.