OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Restoring, Customising and Modifying Reel-Type Mowers Model 45 17" solid deck

Just bought this on Gumtree with thoughts of using it for parts. Strangely it
came with a 14" catcher in fairly good nick? Motor is probably US but reel has more meat than anything else we have. Down side is tops of reel bearing holders are missing. Thinking of using deck for next rebuild rather than the(bent)twin rail we already have.

Can't say I regret the passing of that Kirby-Lauson, but a one-piece deck SB45 seems like a better starting point for a project than a twin rail, especially when the twin rail has serious rail problems. Note that the one-piece deck bolts to the side plates, whereas the twin rails are welded to the side plates, so you can't mix and match pieces of the frame. I don't know why you'd want to anyway, when the one-piece deck frame is a better design.

Hi to Mr.Jones and grumpy,

Mr.Jones, seeing that the machine is going to be stripped down to the bare solid deck chassis for your next rebuild, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind being part of an exercise that Grumpy and I have spoken about many times.

This would make for an excellent archive and may help many members and future members that have the situation of seriously bent and cracked rails of their Series 2 (twin rail) SB Model 45.

With your help, we could come up with a blueprint to enable a metal worker to fabricate a solid deck that could be retrofitted to the Series 2 chassis.

From my understanding, the Series 1 chassis is manufactured in 3 pieces, as Grumpy has explained; the only difference being between the 14", 17" and the 20 " is the width and length of the deck...the side plates being the same for all 3 models.

What this exercise would entail is, once the machine is stripped completely to a bare chassis, removing the 4 bolts securing the deck to the side plates. Clear pics at this stage will also help.

Once this is done, placing both the side plates on a sheet of plain paper and carefully tracing around the perimeter of the side plates.... and then marking accurately the position of the all the holes in each plate.
This would then give us an accurate template of each side plate.

The solid deck would need to be accurately photographed and measured and traced on paper for width, length and the underside for construction details...and whether the nuts for securing the deck to the side plates are captive and measured for their position on the deck.

On the upperside, the position of the cutter clutch support bracket would also need to accurately determined by measurement.

It would be of help to get an idea of the gauges (thickness) of the metal used in the solid deck construction.

Just imagine how good it would be to come up with a successful repair schedule for the SB Model 45 Series 2 and the ability to end up with a better machine than manufactured by the Scott Bonnar later design team.

As an aside, on a good score with this 17" machine, and that catcher may come in handy for a future project, or if you decide to sell, may help another 14" SB owner searching for one.

Looking forward to your reply,

Hi Darryl and Grumpy,

I have a solid deck 14" already stripped and boxed, I'm happy to provide the photos and measurements if you wish. I also have a 17" solid deck 45 that'll be disassembled soon.

Cheers, Michael

That would be excellent Michael, thank you. The challenge is to get accurate dimensions that can be used to make drawings, so that the drawings can be used either to make jigs and fixtures, or at least to make components by hand. The bits of concern are the solid deck (which is made up of several pieces, folded individually then welded together) and the side plates. One of the useful outcomes would be finding out whether the Series 1 and Series 2 side plates are the same aside from the Series 1 having mounting holes for the deck while the Series 2 has the two rails welded to the side plates.

If we could document all this and make it available on the site, we might find people producing their own solid decks, and ideally, someone tooling up to make the decks commercially so they could be retrofitted to tired Series 2 machines with rail problems.

Hi Michael, and many thanks for that mate. The more info we can gather the better.
You will notice that there are 2 extra support plates spot welded for the motor mounts.

Hi Grumpy, DJ and Rolla,

I'm in the process of stripping two 14 inch Electric model 45's (one solid and the other twin rail) and also I shall be totally wrecking a 17 inch twin rail unit for parts that has absolutely shickered rails which I intended to grind out the rails and use as a donor for the comparison between the early and the late side plates and also the clutch mounting anchor bracket. I have already discussed this idea of a commercial venture with Michael in regards to the manufacturing of a replacement solid deck so it could be easily retro fitted into a twin railer and thus reduce the amount of SB's going to scrap due to this common problem.

The only thing is that it has to be done for both the 17 and 20 inch units (different engine placement)as I don't feel the 14 inch machine warrants it as they are much stronger due to their shorter rails in the Series II

If I can help out I'm more than happy to be part of the process.

Cheers,
BB

Hi BB,
Many thanks for that mate, the more people involved in this project the better, it would be fantastic to see this come to fruition.

Hi BB, if you are about to have a pair of single deck and a pair of twin rail side plates, all dressed up so they can be laid one over the other for a very accurate comparison, that will be a substantial step forward for this project. Deejay has told me he is fairly sure his twin rail has the drilled holes in its side plates that were originally used to mount the single deck, and were re-used by the factory as weld holes for the twin rails. If we can verify that by actually laying one over the other, it will greatly simplify the future conversion process. It would mean the original holes just needed to be drilled out, to convert side plates. (Of course this would need to be done very accurately, since those holes establish the accurate alignment of the frame.)

Once we fully understand the side plates and have a plan for how to convert them, the only other issue seems to be capturing the detailed design of the deck.

Hi Grumpy,

What you have suggested is exactly what I intended to do as that was the sole purpose of acquiring the two electric units and the one knackered 17 inch twin railer. They have no real value apart from parts that are shared with the petrol units as the actual chassis's themselves are of no real use afterwards, unless someone wanted to convert them back to petrol model usage which would be a reasonable amount of work and as such it would be easier to find a petrol unit in the first instance.

I was originally thinking of getting the new solid top decks made offshore and make them available as a conversion kit, but time is the essence I guess. Actual viability of the project would also have to be in the right direction to do it in the first place.

Cheers,
BB.

I think the final answer would be getting the solid decks made in China BB, but not until people have some confidence in the design and detailed construction. It seems to me that the best way to do it is to make a few accurately in Australia by hand - and quite possibly several different members will have a go at it. From the Outdoorking point of view, it is best to have the full design details available to all members so they have the choice between doing rather a lot of hand work, or buying one properly made - but they aren't going to prefer the bought ones until they know quite a bit about them.

We all know that when Victa transferred nearly all their manufacturing to China, most people think the quality suffered. Most people also think the more-or-less SB45 copies made in Asia are inferior to "real" SBs in various ways. These impressions may not be accurate in detail - for instance, I've been very surprised at how good most chondas actually are - but you can't expect people to accept Chinese SB parts without proof of their quality. We know that many things are made well in China, and many are made badly. The trick is to know a lot about the item before you buy it.

Hi All

I have been a member for a while but have not commented to date, I have rebuilt a number of scott bonnars over the years and will post a few pictures when I get to my PC. In relation to the solid deck, I had to get one fabricated for my 20inch due to cracks in the original deck, you will understand why when I post of few pictures. Im also in the process of converting a twin rail 20inch to a solid deck, the deck is folded using 4 mill thick steel, much thicker than the original. Anyone looking at doing a conversion will also have to consider the holder that mounts to the deck that holds the clutch housing. I'm lucky enough to have a mate who is a tool maker, in saying that he would prefer to be making tools and not mower parts, so I pushed my luck and placed an order for another 3 decks and clutch holders for the 20inch. I will post some pictures when I receive the goodies

Hi Scuba, welcome to active membership of Outdoorking.

I think many members will be interested to see your pictures, and to look closely at the design of your fabricated solid decks. I'm sure it will help us all by advancing the discussion.

Hi

Not doing this in the past, hope the pictures upload OK, I'm now at the stage where I am waiting for the new deck and other bits and pieces to arrive, I will also included an original 3 piece mower that I rebuilt where I replaced the deck, hope you like the before and after shots

Here is the before and after shots of a mower that I rebuilt and replaced with a new deck, mower cost me $75, but the final cost just a little more, much like the mower that I am converting, 95% of the nuts and bolts are stainless, just don't tell my wife , cheers Steve

Scuba thats a real nice restoration. Did you make the front roller if so what size tube and end caps did you use.

Hi, The roller is stainless with bearings in the end caps, brought it from Ebay, unfortunately I have not seen them for sale for a while now, thanks

Hi Grumpy,

I think you'll find that this particular machine was probably a transition machine with SB still having a stock pile of solid deck side plates and using them on the twin railers rather than wasting them. I'm sure after a few months of production the newer side plates being made would not have had the older style holes in them any longer.



Now, back on topic

As far as confidence in the new top deck being made in China is concerned, if it was to be made to stronger standards than the original and was spot on correct then word of mouth would do the job for us, especially if they were endorsed by the ODK and also sold through the website store. This would give huge credibility to the product, but yes you are correct that a prototype built here in Oz and proven, would be the item to send to China to produce masses of, thus making it affordable to retail and not be too far out of reach to purchase by the average restorer.

Does this sound feasible ?

Cheers,
BB.

hi nice to see my legacy lives on have fun all regards devo.........

Hi all

Just so it is clear, the plate on the first picture actually came off the old looking machine on my second post, I used it as a template to mark the holes on the side plate that I cut the rails off, you will also see silver paint sprayed around the rails before they were removed, I used the paint as an outline to line up where the plate needed to be mounted, although a jig would have been the best way to go, had to resort to old school tactics, as you can see from the forth picture, there were no previous holes, once I receive the fabricated decks in the next couple of weeks, I will send some detailed pictures, cheers

Hi Scuba,

Well it seems that you're a tad in front of me and as such it is probably silly of me to go through the same process that you already have. Maybe we should put our heads together and come up with a viable venture ?

Cheers,
BB

Hi Steve (deviosi, for our newer members), thanks for stopping by. This project could benefit a lot from your involvement, if you have the time to join in.

There are a couple of key issues here. First, is the objective to make strong durable decks, or to make authentic ones to the original design, as is the usual (though not universal) practice with veteran and vintage cars? I think it is very important to have that clearly understood by people who are considering upgrading twin rail machines. Second, I've been told by several people that the most difficult part of getting things made in China, is getting the factory there to make it in accordance with the drawing, rather than taking assorted short-cuts as they go along. Even if you stick to your guns and keep rejecting samples until they finally make an accurate one, the short-cuts will probably be resumed in later production unless you are very attentive on an ongoing basis.

Scuba, I noticed there were no bolt holes for a one piece deck in your sideplates, and this confirms what BB had said. That means it will be important to figure out a way for people who are making conversions to get their bolt holes in exactly the right place. There are only two really accurate ways I know of: using an accurate jig, or using an NC milling machine. If people just drill their own holes to a drawing, the chances are nearly all of them will be out of position, will be drilled or filed oversize to get the bolts through the holes, and will turn the rebuilt mower into a corkscrew-shaped dog's breakfast that produces a lousy, uneven lawn. It will do no credit whatever to Outdoorking if this project ends up producing crummy mowers. BB, you might look at an alternative: ship a genuine solid deck sideplate in good condition to China and have them set up to produce copies on an NC mill. Then you could offer deck-and-sideplates kits to people who wanted to convert their twin rail machines. Ordinarily this would be too expensive to make sense, but such things can be done remarkably cheaply in China, provided you pursue the sourcing and negotiating process meticulously. Obviously the suppliers who are happy to supply decks and sideplates made precisely to drawings, are not the same ones who have an old folder and a pre-war pedestal drill in a wooden shed, and will give you a really good price.

Hi Grumpy

There was a bit a science used to drill the side plates out, actually helped having an original solid deck on hand, I do take you point though. This one being a prototype, can only get better from there. You also make a good point around looking original, you will notice the 90 degree bends on the fabricated plate is rounded and not square like the original. Anyway, have to start somewhere, cheers

I'm not sufficiently familiar with the original to notice small differences Scuba, the plan was to get a whole set of detailed pictures of a good original solid deck from every angle, then add dimensions, sheet metal thicknesses, full details of all of the welds, and so forth, so we have a reliable record here of it all, before anyone gets inventive and decides to make them out of Kraft single cheese slices.

How square you can get the corner of the bend depends partly on how thick the sheet is, and mostly on how good the folder/pan brake is, and how carefully you set it up. You probably know all that better than I do. Getting a good job of sheet metal folding is rather easy with a good brake, especially a power-operated one with limit switches, and close to impossible with a little benchtop folder, though I couldn't do it decently with either one.

To me the most important question to resolve is whether the objective is to make them exactly like the original. Of course I'd vote yes, but I'm not going to be making them.

No worries Grumpy, after I finish this 20 inch, I have one more to convert, not to sure what I will do with 3 x 20 inch mowers, but keeps out of trouble. Next time around I will take some drawings of the side plates from an original MK1 flat top and share with the group, cheers Scuba.

Scuba, can you find time to post pictures and dimensions of the details of the original unmodified solid deck, in the meantime?

Hi Scuba,
and many thanks for the trouble you are going to to help us resolve this issue...I would be excellent to have the pics and dimensions.

Hi Deejay

The original deck is being used as a template to fabricate the new deck, I will send through the measurements of the original and pictures of the re fabricated decks when I receive them in the next couple of weeks

Cheers

Thanks Scuba. We will need detailed pictures of original decks - if possible several of them - and dimensions of each, to make this thread an authoritative record of the Scott Bonnar solid deck design. Pictures of new reproduction decks are interesting but do not help us with the mission of documenting the design.

Can other members help out with this process of documenting the original deck please?

Hi

Just a progress update, I decided to get a Jig (6mm thick) made up that will be used to line up the holes for a twin rail to solid deck conversion. All the holes in the Jig where transferred from an original series 1 20Inch Scott Bonnar. Once you cut the top rails off the twin rail frame, you place the side plates on the jig and line up everything by inserting 8mm metal dowels in the holes where the rear roller and cutter support is mounted, once it is all locked in you flip the jig over (side plate down) and drill the holes used to mount the solid plate using a bench/pedestal drill. At this stage I have only done this to satisfy my own curiosity, and must admit that it would be cost prohibitive for those you want to go down this track, especially if you do not know people in the fabrication game, in saying that, I am still trying to work out a way to get all the dimensions of the mower to assist other members who may interested. Just remember that this is stage one, as you still have to get a solid deck fabricated (approx. $300), locate a bracket to hold the clutch mechanism and clutch cable. I have also posted a few pictures of the machine used to produce the jig and the finished product itself. Cheers.