OutdoorKing Repair Forum Forums Repairs and Maintenance Questions on Engines Questions on Other Engines Villiers Engine Numbers

Can anyone explain the Villiers engine number system, and what model Victas the number sequences started and finished on?

I'm trying to work out what model Victa mowers the following engine numbers came off:

Cylinder # 3812 B6698
Crank case # 402X 45 169

Cylinder # G3095?
Crank case # 407X 29 055

Crank# 764 55
65

Crank # 816
21 354


The top one has a brass pulley, the second a alloy pulley painted red.

As usual, any help much appreciated!

I can possibly ID the engine with Images...Youve no idea what a huge can of worms your trying to open with Villiers...The coding is limitless and confusing and thats just for the engines themselves.trying to ID parts is even harder. I have engine codes for most aus 98cc midgets and 70cc,never got in to much else...I can tell you its Australian(ballarat made)Engine and by the parts its not a Midget,which most Aus rotarys used,so im presuming its off a reel mower... The number is familiar so ill do some peeking for you. Show me images if you like and the date code on top of the flywheel...Red could indicate Austral or pace,but that doesnt count for much...And they both ran 98 and 70 cc Midgets. Sorry I dont have much more for you,hopefully other members can shed some more light Victa only used Villiers on 3 models the billycart,Mk1 Fan and MK2 Fan....The Billy cart and at least 30% of Mk1 Fans were Still english sourced engines and used their coding,which is very erratic and very little is known of their sequence,if at all. Midway through the Mk1 fan the 132x coded Aus engines were used and ran in sequence until the last Mk 2 Fan. A run amount? Im not sure but im thinking around 4,500 only since this is the highest number ive seen on a mk 2 fan. Again other may have more info,but to my knowledge there is very little.
Pace,Austral Villiers, Villager,Vampire and a few others also ran Villiers midgets until the 7f manual and auto were released.

Hi Mal, and well said mate! This indeed could open up a whole can of worms. It's a bit like trying to establish the exact date of manufacture of a Scott Bonnar chassis...it is impossible.
Even the Old Lawnmower Club in England have trouble with Villiers parts info....it could be the fact that a lot of early records have been lost. And that is a shame.

the first engine spec code 402x indicates a mark 2 midget engine and the b6698 is the
part number for the cylinder. the 407x spec is for a 5g engine and was supplied to pace.the spec codes tell the company supplied to and any special components for them.402x = Villiers with d119au inlet pipe,m2530d starter pulley,s12 carby and a 3'1''
cable. 407x = pace, with s10 carby,d169au inlet pipe and d180au silencer.the parts book indicates the cylinder number as c9095 not g3095,so maybe this was a special order.regards,john

Wow! Very Impressive Info John. So they are both Pace...Cool.
And I should have known better not to recognise the B6698,since thats pretty much all I collect lols. Ok So have one 5G c9095 And its a 70cc is this accurate? Always thought mine was of an Austral,but that is even better,since ive a Pace I can now use it on. The really sad thing is I have( had) a list covering all the villiers engine fitments for Aust made mowers,Not a parts list just engine codes,but I cannot find it,and its probably the most important piece of ino I have regarding Villiers engines,all I have left is parts lists for Mk2 and 3 midgets sighs*....I have a question..You say MK2 Midget is for the first and fitted to pace. Since there are no known records covering pace models prior to 56 (yes im sure someone has some,but to date ive not heard anyone who has them,Maybee your the MAN!)Id be really interested if this is an engine off the first Pace rotary,since all recorded forms ran the Hurricane mk3 98cc midget and 70cc ...If you wouldnt mind,and if you have the info could you please tell me the date code this engine would have been? As im really interested in learning more of the first produced Pace mowers,as ive only ever seen one. Anyway Awesome info John!
Regards Mal.

hello mal,no, the first engine,spec 402x ,the mark2 midget, I believe was a standard Villiers supplied engine to any customer, but with the parts mentioned.the 407x spec engine was supplied to pace. my info only lists the mk3 midget,the 3g ang 5g and the 7f as engines supplied to pace.sorry but I don't have date codes for these engines.regards john

Ahh I got you John...The first is not Pace,I read incorrectly. Was hoping to verify pre 56 Pace mowers...Thought Id found some puzzle pieces. lols. Awesome and concise info regardless,Thanks heaps Hoping I can pick your brain in the future regarding Aus Villiers coding as its very valuable info:)
Regards Mal.

Amazing info fellas! I'm having computer dramas at the moment, but will upload images ASAP. The first motor looks indentical to the early fan mowers to my eye, the second slightly different. The third and forth are crank only, one stamped "midget" the other not stamped, but very similar in shape and size. Hopefully will get the images up tonight

4? lols Awesome! Is there anything you dont have your hand in? ha ha. Yes the first will look like the fan engine since John has confirmed it to be a Mk2 midget. The other one (Pace)70cc The Noticable thing should be it has longer legs at the rear and long cylindrical muffler...but yeah get em up when you can so I can see what parts I need!!!...Lmao..Dont forget to check the date code on the flywheel of the MK2,will be interested to see if it falls around any rotary categories What you gonna do with em anyways? If you get the Mk2 going note the difference in running to a victa,they are so low and subtle,kinda like a hit and miss engine when they idle lols.

Having a nightmare trying to upload images. Hopefully this link will send you to an album with a few pictures:











Moderator edit: Only 10 pictures can be attached to one post - I'll post the remainder separately.

http://imgur.com/a/e0DlS

The pics are a little jumbled up, sorry!

John, you're a scholar and a gentleman. Bang on with the inlet pipe number on the 402x - check the pics! I guess the biggest question is what the inlet pipe number suggests about the make/model of mower it was attached to?

As far as the 407x is concerned, you're probably bang on with the cylinder number as it is unclearly stamped. Which model/year Pace do you think it was fitted to?

And any thoughts on the other two crank cases pictured, fellas?

Pictures are great. Im sure John would agree the numbers on the parts wont necessarily tell you what mower they came off,only the serial number will determine this. And he has stated that the 402x was a generic code for many mowers,so maybee we will never know on the 402x 98 cc Midget. To confirm dates of engines Unkie,you need to remove the pulley and alloy housing off the flywheel to see the code stamped on the inner rim of the flywheel. This will give you serial,month and year. So for your 5G (pace confirmed engine) you should be able to verify the model it came off by matching it with the Pace model codes for that year. Since it will be a "standard mower" being only small capacity it should be easy to determine. A Pace 2V70 Or 3ST "Standard Seem likely

Remainder of unkiemonk's images:










Post edit: This completes the set of 19 pictures in approximately the order unkiemonk posted them (including the 5 posted later). If they should be in a different order, please indicate that and if unkiemonk agrees, I'll change them to that order. Let's make this as good a Villiers archive as we can.

Agreed Grumpy,This may turn out to be quite valuable information. Unkie, I did notice the spacers on the 98cc Midget (402X) The most common mowers to use this spacer system at this height were The Villiers Villager" And Vampire" Mowers with the steel base,Not much else comes to mind with this height spacer system,This would be the closest I can come up with to verify its Fittment. As for the 2 other crank cases,Hopefully john can shed more light,But at quick glance they dont appear Aus made,and more likely earlier than your other two.
If its not to much trouble John,I have 2 engines that Im also interested in finding their origins.
The first is a 5G 266x with unmarked brass inlet,I assumed was of an Austral...
The second is of a Mk3 Midget 98cc 194X 14368,which I pulled of a Pope" of all things,But im sure was fitted to a Pace 1V98 or 2VR98 Special"Origionally. Would love to know as I have an Early Pace for Resto without its correct engine.If youve the time would you please be able to assist me in verifaction also? Would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Grumpy! I've added 5 more images to the album showing the internals of the Pace 5G and the date codes for both the MK 2 and the 5g. They are a little faint but appear to read:

MK2: R98B A66E 6 59

5G: R309 A89 6 59

How do you get a date from these numbers, Blue? Are they both June 1959?

Moderator edit: I put the extra 5 images in the second set of pictures, so the whole 19 are in two posts, above in this thread.

mal is correct,you cannot tell what mower from the part number.In regards to the two
crankcases it may be possible to tell what model from any part numbers you can find on the crankcases or even the conrods. there could be a number inside the recessed section where the cylinder bolts.Mal, engine 266x was supplied to "condeco",a company I
don't know about but maybe they built austral mowers.engine 194x is supposed to be a mk2 midget and supplied to champion.champion did sell rebadged stationary engines.on another note,the easiest way to tell the difference between the midget and the G series
engine is by the direction of the fins on the top of the engine. regards,john

A Champion Code, Mk2 Midget,Nice! It is running the Mk3 armature plate A67 Fan is M508 and pulley is M509, Which is definately a MK3. So maybe its a bitsa. I may revert it back 2 Mk2 specs then and keep it as a good spare,who knows I may get a champion one day:) And ill do some research into Condeco" Thanks heaps John,Fantastic Info Youve offered.
And yes Unkie,Coincidently they both appear to be June 59. So your Pace Mower Model" code for your 407X MK3G should be a PACE 3ST Standard" Ill try and find you an Image of one.
Im still thinking your 402X Mk2 is off a Villiers Villager" But I can only Assume. There are many pics of villagers around,so take a peek and see what you think.

Wow, both 1959! Must have been a great year Your suggestion on the MK2 being off a Villager or Vampire looks pretty spot on from the images I've seen. What a gem of a motor though. The engineering of it is of an amazing standard, and pains me to admit that it is by far superior to Victa's of the same era, not to mention the availability of new/repro parts on A couple of UK websites, unlike the poor old Victa donks. It's sought of inspired me to pursue other earlier Villiers fitted mowers from the 50s, and I'm finally starting to understand why the fan mowers are so desireable.

Regarding the 3G/5G, I'm confused. Which is it or are they both the same? The Pace production list notes the Standard as having a 3G but John reckons its a 5G. Forgive my ignorance on this one!

A quick google search turned up a reference to Condeco being the parent company of Austral Villiers, so your theory proved correct, Mal. Nice work mate!

Thought I would post a link in this thread for a very cool Frankenstein of a Victa/Villiers edger that has come up on eBay. Looks to have a nice MK2 on it: Victa Villiers edger

A cheeky request, Mal. I'm neck deep in a model two Rotomo in the early 50 thousands, and am trying my best to make it a concourse quality restoration. I was hoping you could post a thread specifically detailing your collection of model twos, with a particular focus on a photographic progression from the early model twos through to your later examples. The minute details including fuel tap type, painting, decal positioning, throttle type etc, would make creating an accurate, factory correct restoration so much easier for myself, and I'm sure, many others. I ask this as many of the restorations I've seen lack consistency, and I'm pretty sure with your thorough and extensive knowledge on the model, would be able to clear up many of the discrepancies I've encountered. Feel free to tell me to go jump

spec 407x is listed as a 5G engine. Here is a list of spec numbers and engine models.
pace = 263x=3G,-267x=5G,-292x=7F,-297x=7F,-322x=3midget,-327x=3 midget,-340x=3midget,-341x=3midget,-372x=3midget,-373x=3midget,-407x=5G and 514x=7F.
villager = 171x=3midget,-227x=2midget,267x=5G,-299x=7F,-338x=3midget,-374x=3midget,-394x=3G,-445x=7F,446x=7F and 1016x=140deluxe. note-267x was supplied to both pace and villager. regards,john

My appologies,id not seen these 2 posts. Wow John..That is Awesome! Thankyou so much for listing these. What a pity the 402X doesnt fall under Villager,Was really sure about this one:(

Thanks for checking Condeco Unkie...Yes I thought this one was accurate,great detective work

My undestanding of the differences between the 5G and 3G from my own engines is capacity. You will also find crankcase differences,including mount heights. The 3G is a 98cc and has all four legs of the same height. The 5G is a 70cc smaller casing and has longer rear legs. the rest of the differences are visual and John has given you the pt nos for all the external bits I think?:) (Please correct me if Ive got any part wrong)

John is correct, Normally The "standard" form of a few mowers,including Pace" was usually of lower capacity,(or features in Victas" Case),so your 407X would seemingly be a 5G 70cc according to his Specs.

Yes it does state 3G and 3ST? As an example maybee it should say 2V70?...This is starting to confuse me too. by your date code it should be a series 3 Pace Standard,but yeah it says 3ST? Villiers hurt my poor fwagile wittle bwain lols I know for certain the Pace was fitted with a 70cc 5G in Standard' form as ive seen a few examples and sales brochures. Hopefully John may be able to clarify better:) As my knowledge has all but hit its limit

And yes Unkie,ill get some Images up for you when I can,until then feel free to ask anything